Have you forgotten the inability to tell (and post the proof) the difference in ABX between the files with quite "big" differences regarding processing, even if compared to the original file? Now, you guys are trying to persuade us about audible differences between two bit identical files? The same participants? You must be pulling our leg.
Hi Pavel,
You may remember I asked you what Foobar score you would consider adequate for proof. I even offered to present that exact score for you. You declined to respond.
On the present topic, I would urge you to read carefully. I said I could not hear an audible difference between the files. So far as I am aware, only one person is fully convinced there should be a difference and that is Dan. Also, I don't recall Dan participating in your tests, although he might have. So, may I ask who are the "participants" you refer to above?
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The ever present fields surrounding us could be described as 'the aether'....that is what I mean.
Yes, we all know that.....so why does hard magnetic material retain induced magnetic properties instead of reverting to prior condition ?.
Dan.
Relatively simple music allowing zoning in on particular instruments/vocals...I don't understand how that can translate to possible 'fooling' one's hearing.
I presented that particular track for a number of qualities, ie the intro solo bass allows listen listen to just that instrument, ditto the first snare hit is quite discrete, the acoustic guitar is high in the mix, the vocals are quite clear complete with some nice artistic nuance touches, there are large dynamic contrasts, there are pauses allowing hearing tails (silence between notes) etc.
Thank you Mark for trying.
So far we have one 'definite' no, one maybe no and a bunch who have comments but have not indicated whether they have auditioned or not.
The status is that my filters fitted to full/mixed analog/digital systems change recording and playback properties of such systems.
This is proven way beyond any doubt and has nothing to do with suggestion or expectation.
I have further discovered the effects on flash memory by accident and have said so.
I also stated that very interestingly this most curious effect on digital audio files can survive uploading and downloading.
This prompted the call for the two example files which I have provided along with a differently treated third example copy to provide an extra file contrasting to the 'Original as downloaded' copy.
The playback subjective differences are probably not quite what you might be expecting and therefore 'miss' them.
It can take some listeners a couple of trials to 'get it', but once they do their discrimination and preference is absolute.
The usual first words from trialists is 'it's clearer !', even JC said exactly that after a couple of very quick AB's at the end of a phone call.
Many listeners are happy with that and report 'clearer, more real, more enjoyable/more fun' without further analysis and with preferences to the point of not wanting to revert DUT system and not giving back a particular set of headphones......all good.
I have a long term guitar player trialist and a long term bass player trialist who both report changes according to how many and where on their instrument/backline systems filters are placed....if I were to regain these filters the only way would be to pry them from their dying hands, seriously.
With the aid of such filters I have done thousands of sighted on the fly instant AB comparisons and in so doing over a long time have honed my ability to 'see' deep into the mix and pick out individual fine detail sounds and nuances that might previously have escaped me.
I have also done hundreds of blind experiments and score 100% nowadays when selecting between treated and original files.
So fellas, I don't understand the physics of what's going on here and neither do any of you evidently, but please accept that the effects I speak of in the analog domain are real, perfectly real and reproducible.
The reason for me posting the digital files is that months ago I undertook to do so with the proviso that I needed to get particular ingredients and will upload when I get around to it.....I have fulfilled my obligations gladly and willingly.
Whether any of you guys can pick identifiable differences matters to me little....you are at disadvantage by not having treated systems with which to audition the files in question so a null resultant is not significant to me in this case.
That said, I find the differences are still audible on a non treated system but less readily discernible and perhaps requiring some coaching to know what to listen out for.
This is conscious listening, the real test is to not listen consciously and go about normal daily duties and note differences in how one feels.....music is all about feel after all, and reproducing this feel factor is surely the goal of hi-fi.
If one of you guys reports and describes identifiable differences then we are on an interesting journey of discussion and enlightenment.
I am saying open your minds a little and use all of your senses, the musical experience is not just hearing.
Dan.
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I don't understand how either. Perhaps a quirk of brains. I just wondered what might make this piece of music appear resilient enough in its claimed properties for you to choose to post it. I listened in a way that is not normal for me, and my impression was as I described. That all.
I couldn't find anything else. Instant switching between tracks , particularly looping the same section for comparison, reveals they don't sound different, or one more clear than another. If you try it I think you may either be very disappointed or puzzled as to how it could be. In Reaper you can listen that way or as you do in Foobar. So, you can probably hear both they way I do and the way you report using Reaper depending on how you choose to
compare the tracks. I would really like you to try it and tell us if you don't find the same thing I do. I can tell you how I set up Reaper to compare my preferred way. it's pretty easy, it's just a complex program sometimes with more than one way to accomplish something.
Ok, I'll get hold of Reaper and duplicate your methodology.
My method in Foobar is to assign shortcut keys 'B' and 'N' as previous and next respectively.
I then park the mouse pointer anywhere along the track progress bar and pressing touchpad left click resets play position after pressing B or N.
By this method I can play variable length passages from a defined starting point easily and efficiently.
One note here, AABB etc is different to ABAB etc and a few seconds of play is required to 'reset/set' the system when changing tracks.
Dan.
It has to do with stuff like quantum mechanics. Atoms stick together in clumps, there are clumps in ferromagnetic materials called magnetic domains, and the domains tend to get somewhat stuck together with each other due to their electrons or the fields of their electrons which work to create some sticky binding force. Depending on the exact materials the electrons can be stuck in deep energy wells or, say, more shallow wells. With the right amount of energy they can be kicked out enough to let the domains flip around and either line up with an external field or possibly so as to be repelled from each other. More coercive materials get pretty stuck with the magnetic domains lined up the way they are. Why? Quantum mechanics, a bunch of complicated math good for predicting what will happen with subatomic particles.
Anyway, remember the strongest permanent hard magnets are made by charging them up with a big electromagnetic pulse using a coil of wire. That provides enough energy to magnetize them. Enough heat can also provide energy so the domains kind of get unstuck and can flip around and line up more or less to repel each other which means their fields cancel out making the magnet overall demagnetized.
Whew! Everyone please forgive my explanatory story for any and all inaccuracies. I know I took some license there.
I still can't find my UltimateEars IEMs, which is starting to p*** me off, but I have been listening to all 3 tracks on my main system, so Squeezebox -> Pass/Salas DCB1 -> Linkwitz Pluto 2.1 active speakers. I have listened to all 3 files many times in different order, sometimes just the first few minutes but also all the way through many times.
First, I like the song! At times I was dancing around the living room, watching Olympics muted. The band, and especially the vocals remind me a bit of a band from the 1980s from Vancouver called Doug and the Slugs (the woman who is now my wife and I spent more than a few nights dancing to Doug Bennett and the boys).
However, after repeated listening, I cannot discern even the slightest difference among the 3 files. There have been moments when a phrase or a sound seemed to stand out, but there has been no correlation of those moments with any one file.
I still want to repeat the experiment with headphones/earphones, but based on what I have heard so far I cannot imagine it will make any difference. Even if it did, if the difference is not enough to hear through my every day speakers, why would I care?
First, I like the song! At times I was dancing around the living room, watching Olympics muted. The band, and especially the vocals remind me a bit of a band from the 1980s from Vancouver called Doug and the Slugs (the woman who is now my wife and I spent more than a few nights dancing to Doug Bennett and the boys).
However, after repeated listening, I cannot discern even the slightest difference among the 3 files. There have been moments when a phrase or a sound seemed to stand out, but there has been no correlation of those moments with any one file.
I still want to repeat the experiment with headphones/earphones, but based on what I have heard so far I cannot imagine it will make any difference. Even if it did, if the difference is not enough to hear through my every day speakers, why would I care?
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This is the point, and it can't be said enough. This is the classic bait and switch. First we are told the difference is obvious and heard by casual listeners through literally any system. The minute it is submitted for public scrutiny the conditions change, we need coaching or training to hear these differences that previously untrained listeners picked out instantly. Our systems might not be good enough, and the differences that were universally obvious now are subtle and require training to even hear! Not even the Amazing Kreskin had this kind of chutzpa.
Yeah waste your breath. Has our friend Max or his like-minded apologists ever done this?
tl;dr Don't really care anyway. I refuse to apologize for not being taken in by a charlatan, nor for failing to enable someone who makes grandiose claims but does not provide any substantiating evidence. You seem to want to paint me as the bad guy here, but I am not the one trying to pull the wool over people's eyes or sell snake oil.
BTW I don't think I have laughed at anyone, that is not the same as saying they are flat out wrong. But sure, I have tried to keep a light tone in this thread. I suggest you read the thread title again.
Glad you like the band, "dancing around the living room, Olympics muted" haha, I'll pass it on.
the heavy hitters acoustic project/album has previews of all the tracks - choose another track and I can upload it if you like, 44k/24bit.....sixteen tracks, the choice is yours.
The vocalist/guitarist's other incarnation is Hard Rock/Blues band Vdelli, world famous in West Australia, going places in Europe 10 months of the year.
I have known Michael for over fifteen years, talented musician and gentleman, too bad most of you are unlikely to see him live.
Ok, that's how you call it so far.
Yes, try headphones and see how you go.
Dan.
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