I have a few pair of Markaudio drivers,, one pair of 7.3 and one of 10P.
I ran all of the drivers in a long time ago in OB and they have been repacked and sitting for a while awaiting my attention, it is coming to decision time and I would like some thoughts.
The room is 18ft long just over 9ft wide 8ft something ceilings
It is a room that has to be used for living so I cannot afford to be over generous with positioning the speakers out much from the back wall, in fact the less I have to bring them out the better, preferably touching the curtains and no more. The wall behind the speakers will have heavy wall to wall ceiling to floor curtains. The same curtain will be repeated on the wall to the front of the speakers. Not being a lover of laminate the flooring, the floor has been generously padded with heavy wool carpet and thick felt. Perhaps not ideal but some things have to be.
I have toyed with the idea of Frugelhorns for the 7.3's and perhaps bring in a little light augmentation with a sub but not sure how they would work so tight to the curtains,,,, as the Silburys are also rear firing they may not work well either being so close,,, they are also said to have a slightly warm presentation,, and I wonder that they may just sound a bit flat in a room with so much damping.
Front firing may be a better option but I do like the idea of horn type things, if for the only reason that it will make me seem a little more odd to the already baffled neighbours.
The Lotus is recommended for the CHR70 driver,,,, not that I am experienced in all the calculation stuff but I think they may work with the 10P,,, which is more of a bell book and candle thought plucked out of the air, than anything else. I would probably be happy enough with the 10P wedged into a Pencil box once they are running but if I can get a bit more from them I don't mind going the extra mile with cutting wood.
My preference would be to use the 10P drivers at this stage and later I can play with the 7.3's in something else but that will depend on how the suggestions drive my thoughts. I am open to all thoughts opinions and suggestions, all will be graciously received as I am really lost for direction at present on this one!
Suggestions do not have to be restricted to any of the boxes I mentioned, they are just designs of which I am aware.
Ray
I ran all of the drivers in a long time ago in OB and they have been repacked and sitting for a while awaiting my attention, it is coming to decision time and I would like some thoughts.
The room is 18ft long just over 9ft wide 8ft something ceilings
It is a room that has to be used for living so I cannot afford to be over generous with positioning the speakers out much from the back wall, in fact the less I have to bring them out the better, preferably touching the curtains and no more. The wall behind the speakers will have heavy wall to wall ceiling to floor curtains. The same curtain will be repeated on the wall to the front of the speakers. Not being a lover of laminate the flooring, the floor has been generously padded with heavy wool carpet and thick felt. Perhaps not ideal but some things have to be.
I have toyed with the idea of Frugelhorns for the 7.3's and perhaps bring in a little light augmentation with a sub but not sure how they would work so tight to the curtains,,,, as the Silburys are also rear firing they may not work well either being so close,,, they are also said to have a slightly warm presentation,, and I wonder that they may just sound a bit flat in a room with so much damping.
Front firing may be a better option but I do like the idea of horn type things, if for the only reason that it will make me seem a little more odd to the already baffled neighbours.
The Lotus is recommended for the CHR70 driver,,,, not that I am experienced in all the calculation stuff but I think they may work with the 10P,,, which is more of a bell book and candle thought plucked out of the air, than anything else. I would probably be happy enough with the 10P wedged into a Pencil box once they are running but if I can get a bit more from them I don't mind going the extra mile with cutting wood.
My preference would be to use the 10P drivers at this stage and later I can play with the 7.3's in something else but that will depend on how the suggestions drive my thoughts. I am open to all thoughts opinions and suggestions, all will be graciously received as I am really lost for direction at present on this one!
Suggestions do not have to be restricted to any of the boxes I mentioned, they are just designs of which I am aware.
Ray
the forward wave,which is the one we're interested to, depends on the characteristcs of the driver and its ability to follow frequency and amplitude. Directivy or dispersion (inverse...) depends mostly on the geometry of the cone, the high frequency is generated at the center of the cone and modes and distribution along membrane surface determine the sound, either. The speaker should be freely moved,and there are two, around the room so foorstanding ones with fixed "projection cone" are not good.
Dave,,, it's two thirds wall,, with a central window taking up the last third!
Picowallspeaker,
The part of your reply that made most sense to me is the "Everything under and above heaven is in utter chaos" To that I can relate very well.
It also allows me to clarify, There will be no moving of any speakers around the room,, they live up against that wall to restrain the utter chaos in my living room!
The part of your reply that made most sense to me is the "Everything under and above heaven is in utter chaos" To that I can relate very well.
It also allows me to clarify, There will be no moving of any speakers around the room,, they live up against that wall to restrain the utter chaos in my living room!
My suggestions:
You may want to consider what kind of music you will play on these speakers and whether you will want some bass augmentation. I have the A10P and in my experience it does very well at lower volume levels but when driven harder it takes on a congested quality which I believe is a product of too much cone excursion (giving the "Doppler distortion" effect). If you have the resources and the room you may want to look into a "FAST" system (a full range speaker with woofer support). Dave (Planet 10) can tell you what you need to know about FAST.
From your description it sounds as though the room may be quite "dead" acoustically. Any room contributes much to the sound you get from your speakers, and the spectral balance of a speaker can vary widely in different rooms. If possible I suggest you sit as closely to the speakers as is practical and listen directly in front of them (listen on axis).
Finally, depending upon the room, you may benefit from the corner placement of your speakers. Perform a search for "corner speaker placement" to learn about its benefits.
You may want to consider what kind of music you will play on these speakers and whether you will want some bass augmentation. I have the A10P and in my experience it does very well at lower volume levels but when driven harder it takes on a congested quality which I believe is a product of too much cone excursion (giving the "Doppler distortion" effect). If you have the resources and the room you may want to look into a "FAST" system (a full range speaker with woofer support). Dave (Planet 10) can tell you what you need to know about FAST.
From your description it sounds as though the room may be quite "dead" acoustically. Any room contributes much to the sound you get from your speakers, and the spectral balance of a speaker can vary widely in different rooms. If possible I suggest you sit as closely to the speakers as is practical and listen directly in front of them (listen on axis).
Finally, depending upon the room, you may benefit from the corner placement of your speakers. Perform a search for "corner speaker placement" to learn about its benefits.
Thank you majerjack.
Most of the stuff I listen to is the usual female vocalist and jazz,,,, laid back easy listening.
I have toyed with fullrange drivers for some years and have two pair of Acoustic Nirvana drivers one !5" and the pair of the 12" in storage at present as I am between houses. I don't think you can really predict just how dead a room is going to be or how things will work until it's together. I am however very aware from experience over the years just how dramatically the room changes the sound. Even as a child I found rooms with an echo disturbingly unrestful and enjoy living in a more muted environment.
Ray
Most of the stuff I listen to is the usual female vocalist and jazz,,,, laid back easy listening.
I have toyed with fullrange drivers for some years and have two pair of Acoustic Nirvana drivers one !5" and the pair of the 12" in storage at present as I am between houses. I don't think you can really predict just how dead a room is going to be or how things will work until it's together. I am however very aware from experience over the years just how dramatically the room changes the sound. Even as a child I found rooms with an echo disturbingly unrestful and enjoy living in a more muted environment.
Ray
Get with it
What do you suggest Matt?
A pair of Pencils and an active sub?
or something more exotic,,, do I have the bass coming out the back or bring it to the front,,,, perhaps bringing it to the back and firing the woofer to the rear may give a more cohesive sound.
Do I use the 7.3 or the 10P (first)
Just looking and the footprint of the frugal horn 7.3 is only 449mm,,, they could a possible flyer if I were to keep them well back.
Ray
I'm afraid I'm a bit biased Ray. Firstly I don't think a so called fullrange (I prefer wideband) can do it easily, I built the Jordan VTL, which by the way is a very shallow design that works very well right up against the front wall, then I added woofers and active xovers, relieves the wideband of the lower frequencies which was a vast improvement. If I wanted to use just one driver in a cabinet that wouldn't be affected too much by placement close to the front wall I would certainly go with the Lotus option and with the largest driver you have
Matt, the speakers I am using at present are a similar idea to the VTL,, I built them for the boat a few years back and have always been very happy with them.
They are about 13 X 26 X 5 and have a sort of reverse horn that is more or less all stuffed with wool,,, I think the term commonly used is "aperiodic" but again I realise terminology can cause much discussion.
I'm aware the heated discussion that can arise over the "full range" terminology but to my mind it dose suggest a driver with a very wide band.
I am now thinking that a VTL type enclosure might be the ticket as it would keep things neat in that corner,, I wonder how the 10P might fair wedged into the VTL box,,, any thoughts?
Ray
They are about 13 X 26 X 5 and have a sort of reverse horn that is more or less all stuffed with wool,,, I think the term commonly used is "aperiodic" but again I realise terminology can cause much discussion.
I'm aware the heated discussion that can arise over the "full range" terminology but to my mind it dose suggest a driver with a very wide band.
I am now thinking that a VTL type enclosure might be the ticket as it would keep things neat in that corner,, I wonder how the 10P might fair wedged into the VTL box,,, any thoughts?
Ray
Dave knows about the Markaudio speakers, I don't. MLTL (mass loaded transmission line) speakers seem to have taken over from the traditional transmission lines. Perhaps you could take something like the Pencil 10.2 and put the driver in the longer side making for a shallower enclosure, I've seen something with a very similar outward appearance of the Jordan's VTL made out of bamboo ply, I'm betting Dave can show you a picture
This is the one I'm thinking of http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/289573-experience-bamboo-ply.html#post4674339
This is the one I'm thinking of http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/289573-experience-bamboo-ply.html#post4674339
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I have a very similar need to yours, Ray, so will be watching this thread closely.
The WAW (or SWAW) idea seems a perfect solution. Freeing the wideband of the lowest frequencies lets it do what it does best through the midrange. Proper integration is the tough part, and what I have gotten wrong in the past.
Looking forward to what Dave and others suggest.
The WAW (or SWAW) idea seems a perfect solution. Freeing the wideband of the lowest frequencies lets it do what it does best through the midrange. Proper integration is the tough part, and what I have gotten wrong in the past.
Looking forward to what Dave and others suggest.
Quattrofish, not sure that I really was to go active x-over at present ,,, it makes sense my mind. I suppose I could always add an active x-over at a later date. I have been looking at the Lotus and think it may be a sensible way forward at present using the 10P.
It's also an easy build, but I am still looking and haven't made any decisions as yet!
Ray
It's also an easy build, but I am still looking and haven't made any decisions as yet!
Ray
If you are going to go WAW using the A7.3 is a better choice, some find that even stretched to the max it will not produce the required bass — i’m not usually one of them. Still people often comment about how stunned they are with the bass coming out of the Frugel-Horn Mk3.
If you put A10p in a Pencil, FHXL, or Silbury you usually don’t need a helper woofer, and if you did it would be below 40-50 Hz. You’d only use it as a midtweeter if you wanted to play really loud. Here a recent comment about FHXL with A10.3.
Scott’s VTL is far from a well-designed enclosure, and he has taken the back off… very few FRs can do bass in an open baffle without a helper woofer.
The A7 makes a very good midTweeter, but the expense of adding woofers (and usually a 2nd amplifier) may push it out of the budget or to sometime later.
dave
If you put A10p in a Pencil, FHXL, or Silbury you usually don’t need a helper woofer, and if you did it would be below 40-50 Hz. You’d only use it as a midtweeter if you wanted to play really loud. Here a recent comment about FHXL with A10.3.
Scott’s VTL is far from a well-designed enclosure, and he has taken the back off… very few FRs can do bass in an open baffle without a helper woofer.
The A7 makes a very good midTweeter, but the expense of adding woofers (and usually a 2nd amplifier) may push it out of the budget or to sometime later.
dave
Lotus would need to be completely redesigned for the A10p, but that is probably possible.
dave
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