Looking for some advice on where to focus my fullrange audio efforts next. As of now I have a very basic setup consisting of a Onkyo 8020 receiver, Schitt Modi Multibit DAC, Uturn turntable, Dayton SUB800 subwoofer, and a pair of Fostex FF105WK speakers as part of the P1000e kit from Madisound. Additionally I did the duct seal mod to the speakers, stuffed the boxes a bit with polyfil, and added a 3db BSC circuit. I use this system in my small living room, about 16'x20'. The speakers sit on custom stands and are about 6" from the wall and I listen about 9' from the speakers.
Overall I find the system has wonderful detail and a 'spooky' soundstage with a fairly wide sweet spot for listening. I hear detail I never heard before in songs and voices and instruments come from places that seem to be beyond what 2 speakers should do. Very pleased with the investment so far. SPL seems fine, the Onkyo is rated at 50w per channel and volume is delineated from 0-80, loud to me is 40, 45 on occasion, never been beyond 60 and have no desire to go higher. Most normal listening is around 20.
Things I would like to improve. I find the sound can be somewhat harsh and it becomes a bit fatiguing to listen to after a few songs at louder volumes. Also I find voices get lost in some recordings, the instruments seem to dominate the sound. I listen to a wide variety of music so anything from classical to punk.
I have thought of 2 approaches for the next upgrade. I could either try some new cabinets for the speakers, the Planet10 milleSize flatpack looking to be a good option. Staying with the compact size is important so only an incremental increase in dimensions over the p1000e setup is desired. Or option 2 I can plug in a miniDSP or other preamp in the system and filter out some of the low frequency (<100hz) out of the speakers and try to shape things smoother up higher. My preference would be to do the cabinets but I wanted to get some more informed opinions. Obviously I am very new to this game.
Overall I find the system has wonderful detail and a 'spooky' soundstage with a fairly wide sweet spot for listening. I hear detail I never heard before in songs and voices and instruments come from places that seem to be beyond what 2 speakers should do. Very pleased with the investment so far. SPL seems fine, the Onkyo is rated at 50w per channel and volume is delineated from 0-80, loud to me is 40, 45 on occasion, never been beyond 60 and have no desire to go higher. Most normal listening is around 20.
Things I would like to improve. I find the sound can be somewhat harsh and it becomes a bit fatiguing to listen to after a few songs at louder volumes. Also I find voices get lost in some recordings, the instruments seem to dominate the sound. I listen to a wide variety of music so anything from classical to punk.
I have thought of 2 approaches for the next upgrade. I could either try some new cabinets for the speakers, the Planet10 milleSize flatpack looking to be a good option. Staying with the compact size is important so only an incremental increase in dimensions over the p1000e setup is desired. Or option 2 I can plug in a miniDSP or other preamp in the system and filter out some of the low frequency (<100hz) out of the speakers and try to shape things smoother up higher. My preference would be to do the cabinets but I wanted to get some more informed opinions. Obviously I am very new to this game.
Unfortunately that would put the speakers out in the middle of the room. Getting them away from over the TV and out on to proper stands was a hard sell to my better half. 4' from the front wall is a no go.
Scott; I take it that there is only a single sub in the system. The Dayton is a budget priced unit with 8" driver, and might be sufficient for small room system if crossed over low enough, but even the top end of its range (nominally 140Hz) is much lower than I think the 105s would be comfortable operating to in an OB configuration. Also, it sounds like space is an issue - both for the enclosures and placement, and decent LF response from the full-range in such an OB requires at least a larger baffle than the P1000e kit or milliFonkens.
While the 8020 is also a modest unit, if it bears any of the Onkyo DNA, it should have more than sufficient power to let the Fostexes sing. However it does lack the pre out / main in loop that could greatly simplify a HP filter on the "main" speakers. Adding a miniDSP in the tape monitor loop could probably work - the HF pass band back into the tape in, and LP to the Dayton Sub. At $95 USD, the basic 2x4 in a box is relatively affordable, and for "good enough, for now", you could probably get by without the UMIK.
Reading the downloadable owner's manual, it looks like at this price point, the Onkyo's subwoofer line out is full range and relies on LP filter / XO control in the outboard sub amp .
If space was less of an issue than apparently is the case, I'd highly recommend the Woden Vampyrs over the milliFonkens.
While the 8020 is also a modest unit, if it bears any of the Onkyo DNA, it should have more than sufficient power to let the Fostexes sing. However it does lack the pre out / main in loop that could greatly simplify a HP filter on the "main" speakers. Adding a miniDSP in the tape monitor loop could probably work - the HF pass band back into the tape in, and LP to the Dayton Sub. At $95 USD, the basic 2x4 in a box is relatively affordable, and for "good enough, for now", you could probably get by without the UMIK.
Reading the downloadable owner's manual, it looks like at this price point, the Onkyo's subwoofer line out is full range and relies on LP filter / XO control in the outboard sub amp .
If space was less of an issue than apparently is the case, I'd highly recommend the Woden Vampyrs over the milliFonkens.
I noted this, too. I thought they were fine on some material (definitely not rock), but my girlfriend flat out disliked them, presumably because she could hear the 8kHz spike more clearly than I could.
This thread has good measurements:
Fostex FF105WK Experiments
Based on the polars (3rd post), listening ~20 degrees off axis and trimming the peak looks like it'd give a good balance.
Try it for free: download some software (Foobar + a plugin or Equalizer APO), cut 5 to 8dB off @ 8 kHz, and see if you like what you hear.
I'd go with option 2. A slightly different box won't fix the HF or the overall balance.
Option 2 would also open up a future upgrade: getting a 2nd sub, and being able to move the crossover higher.
This non-reversible tweak is a third option:
I haven't tried it or seen it measured, so I dunno if it is genius or a wishful crapshoot.
The Fostex enclosures are of some limited quality, thin & unbraced — keeps the weight down for shipping. I strongly suspect a more substantially built box would not hurt.
The FF85/105wk do have some resonances. An easy at home fix (at least partial) is the 2 applications of ZIG 2-way glue to the interface of the surround and the cone on the back of the driver.
Ours also get a pre-treat and then get EnABLed on top of that. EnABLing is daunting for most, but the pre-treat is not that hard — email me if you want to give it a go.
dave
The FF85/105wk do have some resonances. An easy at home fix (at least partial) is the 2 applications of ZIG 2-way glue to the interface of the surround and the cone on the back of the driver.
Ours also get a pre-treat and then get EnABLed on top of that. EnABLing is daunting for most, but the pre-treat is not that hard — email me if you want to give it a go.
dave
Many of those "hifi" drivers have that shout in the mid to high frequencies.
Those peaks located between 7kHz and 12kHz are there to try to get the driver flat when the listener is sitting at an angle away from the driver. There's also other issues relating to ringing, etc...
As a test, do not toe-in the speakers, and see if that helps reducing that harshness.
Some people believe that peak translates to "detail" or DDR... Not for me thanks. That peak also hurt my ears if I want to listen for extended time.
So, if you do get the MiniDSP, get the HD version. It has an optical or USB input, using it as a preamp. The analogue inputs lose a lot of details by performing A/D - XO and EQ - D/A conversion.
That means, you'll need either a computer or hardware with optical output. You still need to plug in a computer to adjust EQ and XO. You'll also need a measurement mic to "see" what you are doing, and not just shots in the dark. MiniDSP offers a mic along the MiniDSP purchase. It's a good offer. And indispensable if you want to get the best sound possible in your room.
The other solution is to still get a mic, measure where the peak is exactly (assuming there's only one) and come up with a passive notch filter for your speaker and room.
Good luck!
Those peaks located between 7kHz and 12kHz are there to try to get the driver flat when the listener is sitting at an angle away from the driver. There's also other issues relating to ringing, etc...
As a test, do not toe-in the speakers, and see if that helps reducing that harshness.
Some people believe that peak translates to "detail" or DDR... Not for me thanks. That peak also hurt my ears if I want to listen for extended time.
So, if you do get the MiniDSP, get the HD version. It has an optical or USB input, using it as a preamp. The analogue inputs lose a lot of details by performing A/D - XO and EQ - D/A conversion.
That means, you'll need either a computer or hardware with optical output. You still need to plug in a computer to adjust EQ and XO. You'll also need a measurement mic to "see" what you are doing, and not just shots in the dark. MiniDSP offers a mic along the MiniDSP purchase. It's a good offer. And indispensable if you want to get the best sound possible in your room.
The other solution is to still get a mic, measure where the peak is exactly (assuming there's only one) and come up with a passive notch filter for your speaker and room.
Good luck!
Last edited:
Yes, you got the idea. A very modest system, I tried carefully based on reviews to choose well regarded components that fit my very limited budget.
I can't quite get my head around how the DSP would fit in the tape monitor loop, is this kind of setup documented anywhere? I had assumed I would need to have the DSP between the source and receiver using the receiver then as just an amp.
I looked at the Woden Vampyrs, if it was just me I would do those in a heartbeat but I need to compromise and keep the speaker boxes small.
I adjusted the position and found that I prefer the speakers just slightly angled in and a little up so I do listen off axis. Yes it did make a difference.
My music is a collection of digital and vinyl so whatever way I go it needs to work well with an analog input.
perceval - re minidsp - IINM, the HD lacks onboard DACs, and while it purportedly has superior performance, by the time you're done, unless you have some kicking around the total cost would be at least triple that of the cheaper 2x4, and lots of extra boxes.
On second thought, my suggestion of inserting the minidsp in the tape loop was a significant brain fart - I can remember doing this with a Soundcraftsmen 2012 EQ "back in the day", but in this case you'd loose the ability to control volume of the woofer from the receiver. Now, on any unit with a pre out / main in loop, it'd work like a charm.
What I did with one of my "FAST" systems was to build a SURE 4-channel class D in a box with buffer and PLLXO with 3 selectable XO frequencies on both the Lo & Hi pass sections. The whole thing set me back less than $250, and I already had a pre/DAC (Citypulse)
edit: Take a look at the Outlaw RR2160 for an under the radar machine with an almost perfect feature set for a 2-channel receiver. Not something the mainstream folks are paying much serious attention to these days, certainly not at the price.
. RR2160 Stereo Receiver
On second thought, my suggestion of inserting the minidsp in the tape loop was a significant brain fart - I can remember doing this with a Soundcraftsmen 2012 EQ "back in the day", but in this case you'd loose the ability to control volume of the woofer from the receiver. Now, on any unit with a pre out / main in loop, it'd work like a charm.
What I did with one of my "FAST" systems was to build a SURE 4-channel class D in a box with buffer and PLLXO with 3 selectable XO frequencies on both the Lo & Hi pass sections. The whole thing set me back less than $250, and I already had a pre/DAC (Citypulse)
edit: Take a look at the Outlaw RR2160 for an under the radar machine with an almost perfect feature set for a 2-channel receiver. Not something the mainstream folks are paying much serious attention to these days, certainly not at the price.
. RR2160 Stereo Receiver
Last edited:
I don't think you are looking at the same unit I have here.
This MiniDSP HD unit has a DAC (how could it get digital input and analogue outputs otherwise?). It's only one box, and allows me to play with different XO curves and crossing frequencies. Quite the little performer. The DAC is not the best, but it's not bad either. So, it can be used as a standalone pre-amp as well.
miniDSP in a BOX : miniDSP 2x4 HD
Where it loses clarity, it's when used with analogue inputs. The A/D, modelling, and D/A conversions loses information. Good enough to test different XO, but not for serious listening.
Looks like a neat little unit. Thanks for sharing.
Perceval - you’re right, another episode of cerebral flatulance - I keep on telling my wife it’s possible to get too much fibre, but she persists. I was sure that there was a model at one time that lacked output DACs, but I suspect it’s academic at this point?
If I was in the market for a one box 2 channel audio only piece, I’d seriously consider the Outlaw receiver - even though it had a face “only a mother could love” - or is it just me?
The little Emotiva TA100 is also quite interesting, and looks like great value, but lacks the functions and flexibility of the RR2160
If I was in the market for a one box 2 channel audio only piece, I’d seriously consider the Outlaw receiver - even though it had a face “only a mother could love” - or is it just me?
The little Emotiva TA100 is also quite interesting, and looks like great value, but lacks the functions and flexibility of the RR2160
No worries! 
The original MiniDSP doesn't have a DAC, only analogue I/O, so you were not that far. They introduced the HD model with digital inputs and a built-in DAC lately. That's the more interesting unit.
The RR 2160 would fit right at home in a 1950 diner styled living room!
Insert that into a DIY jukebox and it could be cool! he he!
I was expecting a class D, but was surprised to see it is class A/B.
The Emotive would be perfect having 2 FR drivers sitting on top of powered sub boxes (including user selectable XO) with its twin summed outputs. Just add a 2nd order to the FR and it's good to go!
The original MiniDSP doesn't have a DAC, only analogue I/O, so you were not that far. They introduced the HD model with digital inputs and a built-in DAC lately. That's the more interesting unit.
The RR 2160 would fit right at home in a 1950 diner styled living room!
Insert that into a DIY jukebox and it could be cool! he he!
I was expecting a class D, but was surprised to see it is class A/B.
The Emotive would be perfect having 2 FR drivers sitting on top of powered sub boxes (including user selectable XO) with its twin summed outputs. Just add a 2nd order to the FR and it's good to go!
Each of the analog outputs has to have a DAC in front of it, no different than the miniDSP you linked too, but for the higher sample rate into the DACs.
dave
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.