They appear to be very(!!) loud, but not that low
The "first octave" is the first octave in the range of human hearing, which is generally accepted as 20-20k ish. The high end is more flexible depending on the human and their perception, or perception of perception
Brian,The "first octave" is the first octave in the range of human hearing, which is generally accepted as 20-20k ish. The high end is more flexible depending on the human and their perception, or perception of perception
"Generally accepted", but not true for many. I once could hear 18kHz, but can no longer hear above 16 kHz. There are very few male adults that can hear above 18kHz.
16kHz is only 1/3 octave below 20kHz, but I can easily hear 10 Hz, a full octave below 20 Hz.
I have also looked at what I was listening to with an RTA, and it was not the second harmonic I was hearing, it was the 10 Hz fundamental.
Art
Probably to instill a primeval fear. 8Hz caused structural damage so isn't used
Music: 20Hz unless you want something like organ pipes.
HT: 5Hz, maybe lower. IIRC the footsteps part in Jurassic Park has a strong 5Hz component.
More often than not, any <20Hz content in music isn't really meant to be there. Clapton's Unplugged album has a lot of VLF content, which I suspect is a stage resonance being picked up by mics that should really have had a highpass filter in place.
Electronic stuff can have whatever the artist wants in there, but most stay above 30Hz, with some of the more "extreme" ones dropping to 25Hz. Of course, there's a nutter (not in an offensive way) on AVS Forums that makes his own music with a lot of strong infrasonic content.
Chris
I've recently built a pair of sealed 400W 12" subs. I've tuned the system to reach 16Hz at -3dB, with a linkwitz transform. I can actually still hear 14Hz test tones, though I'm stressing the system at that point. Especially when I want it to output some decent level across the entire spectrum all the way down to 14Hz.Is it real? Should we target something different regarding that hard-to-reach first octave (and below) with music-oriented-system and movie-oriented-system (HT) ?
In a perfect world, i'd say no.
Any true Hi-Fi system should be able to reproduce with fidelity any sound, including the explosion of a planet (!) even though sound waves are not travelling through space and even though our neighbors are not always enjoying infrabass as we might do...
But, it's not a perfect world, is it...
So, what about -3 db (F3) @ 25hz for music and F3 @ 15hz for movies, can we settle for that once and for all ?
After many years of careful observations, i think there is some very important music content starting from about 27-28hz. Missing that would be a shame. In fact, most of the older recordings are in fact lacking of the first octave in general. They need a boost in that region. I'm a big fan of EQ boosting around 30hz (high Q, though) to get more ''meat'' around the bones of most recordings, especially the very thin and anorexic stuff from the 80's (darn CD re-mastering of this era....)
Anyway... What do you think?
Should we be more ambitious, regarding music oriented system? F3 @ 20hz or even less ?
Or, on the contrary, you can deal with less of that first octave and be very happy with it ?
For movies, in particular modern movies with elaborate sound tracks, you can't go low enough in my opinion. There is quite a lot going on in the infra-bass region in SF and action movies, judging by the movement of my woofer cones. Currently I employ a 2nd order HPF @ 16Hz, and the system is tuned to 16Hz with LT. I'm going to leave the HPF in place and re-tune to 18Hz or 19Hz with the LPF, lowering some of the extreme LF gain, to relieve the stress and improving the dynamic range of the systen. Should give satisfactory results, taking room gain into account.
For music, I believe that a lower limit of 20Hz should be sufficient to cover most, if not all, modern music recordings. For acoustic (jazz and classical) recordings, it's another story. In a live context (symphony orchestra, for example), there is no lower limit to the frequency spectrum. So I'd say the lower limit of playback should be dicated by the limits of your playback system and acoustics.
I strongly disagree with you here, about VLF content "that should really have had a highpass filter in place". No offense, but who are you to judge that?
As a recording engineer, I take great care to record everything - including VLF conctent that my seem useless. However, stage resonances may not seem useful, but when the finished product is played back on a system (including acoustics!) that can faithfully reproduce those frequencies, it definitely adds a lot to the sense of realism of the recoring. You won't ever hear those frequencies on smaller systems - and that's why it is the responsibility of the mix- and mastering engineers to keep the energy in the <40Hz range in check. But it's a shame to deny those who do have true full-range systems the joys of hearing useful infra bass in music and movies.
Ofcourse: leaving low frequency bleed intact on a hi-hat track is pretty useless and LF plosives on any vocal track are distracting. But the true live-feel is captured with the room- and audience mic's, as well as most acoustic instruments. It'd be a d*mn shame to cut those to pieces with hi-pass filters without careful concideration.
Well put, good for you! My system only goes down to about 9 Hz, but I love the sense of "realness" of recordings that go below the arbitrary 20 Hz cutoff.
Sure a lot of loose talk in this thread now. It would be nice to see some wild claims backed up with measurements.
He's a bit more loose talk: I have some railroad recordings full of bumps and rude banging; now that is low frequencies of a very serious nature*. Nothing could shake your sternum and give you serious bodily vibrations like when played by a Klipschorn bass. Yet a Klipschorn does not play much below 35 Hz. Go figure.
B.
*Did I mention these were on an LP from maybe 1960?
He's a bit more loose talk: I have some railroad recordings full of bumps and rude banging; now that is low frequencies of a very serious nature*. Nothing could shake your sternum and give you serious bodily vibrations like when played by a Klipschorn bass. Yet a Klipschorn does not play much below 35 Hz. Go figure.
B.
*Did I mention these were on an LP from maybe 1960?
Me? I'm a live sound engineer. I've also done some studio work.
In the case of the Unplugged album, I am almost certain that nobody in the audience was exposed to the VLF content that's being picked up by a mic from someone tapping their foot on-stage. I do have a system that goes that low, and it's very distracting!
I'd recommend having a listen. In general, I agree. In some cases, the engineers should check more carefully IMO.
Chris
Ben,
Considering most folks chest resonant frequencies are anywhere from 60 to 160 Hz, content below 35 Hz does not give the same "kick". When you feel your pants legs flapping, and your eyeballs flopping about in their sockets, "now that is low frequencies of a very serious nature" ;^)
Art
Interesting,
Waaaaay back in the day, they built pipe organs that produced the 16Hz note--they called it music. In the 1960's, the Japanese researchers figured out the typical frequency range of ADULT human hearing to be 16Hz to 18KHz--this is true and some people can reliabilbly hear 12 to 14Hz. The skeleton will transfer VLF to your inner ear so you can detect the really low stuff. After all, in nature anything that is VLF is considered a bad thing and you had better take note of it an run like hell and hide. Avalanches, earthquakes, stampedes, volcanoes and tornadoes are never a good thing.
Sure, if your idea of music is a piano and bass guitar--more power to you but it's not for me. I want my system to do a pipe organ, have noticed that even 25 years ago the bass synth was going very low quickly, even Enya has a 23Hz note in Sheppard Moons.
I have two sound systems, a very high output line array with two PPSL subs tuned to 24Hz in the garage--it is my "music system" in that it's a garage and I play tunes there, drinking beer and working on lawnmowers, building/fixing things and so on. My FR is down to the low 20's with garage gain (door closed)
My in house system is for HT, I have one sub that goes down to 18Hz in room and building two more higher output subs that will be tuned to 18Hz with response down to 15 or 16Hz usable specifically for HT use. Going below that does bad things, my bedroom floor (suspended hardwood floor) will resonate at 10.6Hz--my wife gets really pissed off when it does.
For music, it depends on what you want to listen to and how much madness your building can handle. Personally, I like pipe organs and use it as a test disc and want my in house system to go down to 16Hz to capture pipe organs or modern music with all that is encoded on the disc. Classic rock is fine but I tend to listen to music from classical, blues, rock, rap, R&B, Japanese war drums to pipe organs going full chat.
I also have sons, they like to come over and plug their phones into the mix and blast the garage system. My subs with that 24Hz tuned port can really move a ton of air with their selections as those dual 15 inchers earn their keep and the doors protest the onslaught. The term for it is having a good time, basically what I built the music system in the garage to do. If I was going to do it again (I won't!) I would of built more robust subs to handle the 16 to 25Hz band.
For HT, THX specs 109dB at 20Hz or -6dB down from the 115dB peaks of the standard. Presently building two more subs and will do the settings for -6dB down at 16Hz then high pass the things to protect my house. It won't do Blackhawk Down at 8Hz or Edge of Tomorrow at 9Hz but I tend to avoid repairing my house. If I really get anal, then I'd just use those tactile transducers to fake it under 16Hz.
If you don't listen to pipe organs or modern music and never plan to listen to any music produced in this century the rest of your life--go with 27Hz and be happy. If you want a music system to reproduce all music forms, go with 16Hz as your ears will hear it and there is stuff that goes that low. My system is the garage is flat to around 27Hz then starts to fall off and pretty much goes away by the low 20's. It is fine and I only miss the really deep stuff with a few cuts on occasion.
Then again, I do have the designs on my computer for that 17Hz tapped horn call the Lilwrecker--might have to build a pair and maybe use the PPSL's retuned for mid bass boxes? Hmmm.... Garage system is unlimited but the HT has to abide by the WAF concepts.
Waaaaay back in the day, they built pipe organs that produced the 16Hz note--they called it music. In the 1960's, the Japanese researchers figured out the typical frequency range of ADULT human hearing to be 16Hz to 18KHz--this is true and some people can reliabilbly hear 12 to 14Hz. The skeleton will transfer VLF to your inner ear so you can detect the really low stuff. After all, in nature anything that is VLF is considered a bad thing and you had better take note of it an run like hell and hide. Avalanches, earthquakes, stampedes, volcanoes and tornadoes are never a good thing.
Sure, if your idea of music is a piano and bass guitar--more power to you but it's not for me. I want my system to do a pipe organ, have noticed that even 25 years ago the bass synth was going very low quickly, even Enya has a 23Hz note in Sheppard Moons.
I have two sound systems, a very high output line array with two PPSL subs tuned to 24Hz in the garage--it is my "music system" in that it's a garage and I play tunes there, drinking beer and working on lawnmowers, building/fixing things and so on. My FR is down to the low 20's with garage gain (door closed)
My in house system is for HT, I have one sub that goes down to 18Hz in room and building two more higher output subs that will be tuned to 18Hz with response down to 15 or 16Hz usable specifically for HT use. Going below that does bad things, my bedroom floor (suspended hardwood floor) will resonate at 10.6Hz--my wife gets really pissed off when it does.
For music, it depends on what you want to listen to and how much madness your building can handle. Personally, I like pipe organs and use it as a test disc and want my in house system to go down to 16Hz to capture pipe organs or modern music with all that is encoded on the disc. Classic rock is fine but I tend to listen to music from classical, blues, rock, rap, R&B, Japanese war drums to pipe organs going full chat.
I also have sons, they like to come over and plug their phones into the mix and blast the garage system. My subs with that 24Hz tuned port can really move a ton of air with their selections as those dual 15 inchers earn their keep and the doors protest the onslaught. The term for it is having a good time, basically what I built the music system in the garage to do. If I was going to do it again (I won't!) I would of built more robust subs to handle the 16 to 25Hz band.
For HT, THX specs 109dB at 20Hz or -6dB down from the 115dB peaks of the standard. Presently building two more subs and will do the settings for -6dB down at 16Hz then high pass the things to protect my house. It won't do Blackhawk Down at 8Hz or Edge of Tomorrow at 9Hz but I tend to avoid repairing my house. If I really get anal, then I'd just use those tactile transducers to fake it under 16Hz.
If you don't listen to pipe organs or modern music and never plan to listen to any music produced in this century the rest of your life--go with 27Hz and be happy. If you want a music system to reproduce all music forms, go with 16Hz as your ears will hear it and there is stuff that goes that low. My system is the garage is flat to around 27Hz then starts to fall off and pretty much goes away by the low 20's. It is fine and I only miss the really deep stuff with a few cuts on occasion.
Then again, I do have the designs on my computer for that 17Hz tapped horn call the Lilwrecker--might have to build a pair and maybe use the PPSL's retuned for mid bass boxes? Hmmm.... Garage system is unlimited but the HT has to abide by the WAF concepts.
My in house system is for HT, I have one sub that goes down to 18Hz in room and building two more higher output subs that will be tuned to 18Hz with response down to 15 or 16Hz usable specifically for HT use. Going below that does bad things, my bedroom floor (suspended hardwood floor) will resonate at 10.6Hz--my wife gets really pissed off when it does.
LOL, my wife does too and I only have a 15" T-TQWT tuned to 23 hertz, about 200 watts from a Yamaha HTR, and no subsonic high pass filter.
I get a kick out of all these bassheads and the claims of getting all that low, low bass. I've been in front of too many speakers that have very solid bass all the way down to the extreme of 45Hz - and everyone goes "Oooo" & "Ahhhh" and "what massive, amazing bass." Never heard anyone complain about a lack of bass with speakers that stop at 40-45Hz as long as those speakers were really solid above that. No need for VLF for amazing, satisfying bass.
What I do hear in a lot of recordings and live feeds is low end rubbish that the engineers obviously never heard on their puny desktop mixing speakers. Usually that has to be filtered out. VLF can be cool, but mostly what I hear down there is better left out. Perhaps it a matter of taste.
What I do hear in a lot of recordings and live feeds is low end rubbish that the engineers obviously never heard on their puny desktop mixing speakers. Usually that has to be filtered out. VLF can be cool, but mostly what I hear down there is better left out. Perhaps it a matter of taste.
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