The professors I had in school mostly lived in their own world and if anyone disagreed or questioned, the student was chastised in public.
Only a couple of them understood what it's like in the real world. That at the end of he day one has to put food on the table and pay the mortgage. The rest just believed the money would keep coming from somewhere.
The University of Minnesota has a huge library and nothing in it. I've had better luck finding books at Microcenter. Shame.
One can not have to many books!
Only a couple of them understood what it's like in the real world. That at the end of he day one has to put food on the table and pay the mortgage. The rest just believed the money would keep coming from somewhere.
The University of Minnesota has a huge library and nothing in it. I've had better luck finding books at Microcenter. Shame.
One can not have to many books!
there one thing definitely worse at this place: the climate. This must be the darkest spot of germany, it never gets warm and bright. I feel like north of sweden.
There is a fine library, no space in it because loads of (homeless?)chinese hanging around there reading books and so. They have loads of books, but only older ones. I feel they run out of money 20 or 30 years ago.
There are more people employed in administration at this place than in science: the scientist mostly get no new job, they are only employed for 2 years or so... the administration poeple can´t be fired.
The professors life i a very own world: they care for making some money on their own, running engineering bureaus, using university ressources for this.
The classes are mostly pure nonsense. There is noone who answered me any question so far, and at exams they want me to tell equations every sanely human beeing would look up in a book. In opposite to the US it seems to be normal to study and work (for the prof) for about 10 years at a Univerity before you may have a well paid job. Running my own business for about 10 years before entering this educational system, i have to say i know how to earn some money in an easier way. Simply work without beeing exploited. Also i know how to learn: Lerning by doing. (something these academic people missed to understand)
Off, going to my workshop...
There is a fine library, no space in it because loads of (homeless?)chinese hanging around there reading books and so. They have loads of books, but only older ones. I feel they run out of money 20 or 30 years ago.
There are more people employed in administration at this place than in science: the scientist mostly get no new job, they are only employed for 2 years or so... the administration poeple can´t be fired.
The professors life i a very own world: they care for making some money on their own, running engineering bureaus, using university ressources for this.
The classes are mostly pure nonsense. There is noone who answered me any question so far, and at exams they want me to tell equations every sanely human beeing would look up in a book. In opposite to the US it seems to be normal to study and work (for the prof) for about 10 years at a Univerity before you may have a well paid job. Running my own business for about 10 years before entering this educational system, i have to say i know how to earn some money in an easier way. Simply work without beeing exploited. Also i know how to learn: Lerning by doing. (something these academic people missed to understand)
Off, going to my workshop...
German Universities
Till,
A bit off topic, but I agree with you fully on the problems of technical education in Germany. Too much interest in money / career making, too little interests in science, especially those who should be, like professors and Ph.D. students.
> no space in it because loads of (homeless?)chinese hanging
> around there reading books and so.
With due respect, I hope you are not being racist. I have been an overseas student in England for many years, and with little private life, library was a good place to kill time and to do something productive, rather than hanging around in discos or even worst casinos. Just some people are willing to put in more effort in their study do not render them not worthy of your respect.
Patrick
Till,
A bit off topic, but I agree with you fully on the problems of technical education in Germany. Too much interest in money / career making, too little interests in science, especially those who should be, like professors and Ph.D. students.
> no space in it because loads of (homeless?)chinese hanging
> around there reading books and so.
With due respect, I hope you are not being racist. I have been an overseas student in England for many years, and with little private life, library was a good place to kill time and to do something productive, rather than hanging around in discos or even worst casinos. Just some people are willing to put in more effort in their study do not render them not worthy of your respect.
Patrick
I was going to deep depression too till,
And i was nervous with that game of sending and returning pappers we have here too,
I felt myself exploited too.
I decide not to work for no one else anymore, and i was so deeply bad that i could not see my own face at a mirror.
The University gave me tons of "Brazilian problems"... and i felt that must "format"...clean all, and make all again from the zero.... delete all, and HD formatting again....gave me tons of Research Methods, a lot of Religion, some packages of Philosophy and only one good information, the first class of Psychology, the fat man said very sad..... talking low level voice and captured with a sound system:
You will learn a lot of trashes here (he was fired that year...cannot tell true!), and they will say that those bull s---- are very important to you, your will see Rorschach crazy butterflies, but do not say that, they will think you are a gay!.....and they will challenge you to understand a lot of crazy guys with astonished theories of the shadow of the transparent glass, how black it is.
But i will give you all the "Certificate of Psychology Course Completed".... take into your account that each one of us think deeply, despite the words dennie, that they are the best.... they are, alike you all are, terrible defended against the others, afraid of the others, and create some "theather adequated personalitty" to be his "imagine" in this life..... some life alike a theather.... you have to receive a good money to hear all the lies the guy will tell you... for monthes, till the day he started to say the true.... this way, he will face himself and will find solution by himself.....you try to imagine things and make a good face of attention, beeing not listening nothing....he will be cured, he will be good to talk and to find solutions or not solutions to their problem...you have to collect the money and provide him a confortable environment to sit and talk, and they must believe you are listening, despite you are thinking what to do next weekend.
I was shoked!...could see not too wrong the man....i had my "Certificate" the first day, all i had related the informs are not used.....maybe ohms law can be the answer for our problems related electronics too.
My old friend till, i became fat, enormous and i tried some "fantastic new drug", developed in one drugstore garage.... the man create a miracle poison to turn the fat ones a very thin and pretty guys.... i made a lot of pu pu and a lot of pi pi, always inside the WC, but another result was magnificent.... the white pilule, with the white powder....made me smile all the time, i could not go to buried no one!..... i was laughing of disasters..... i lost 25 kilograms and still using the pill, unfortunattelly do not making me smile anymore...but some medicine against depression is usefull sometimes... give this chance to you, as the weather are not cooperating with you, this gray time make us fell bad.
Good luck till
Carlos
And i was nervous with that game of sending and returning pappers we have here too,
I felt myself exploited too.
I decide not to work for no one else anymore, and i was so deeply bad that i could not see my own face at a mirror.
The University gave me tons of "Brazilian problems"... and i felt that must "format"...clean all, and make all again from the zero.... delete all, and HD formatting again....gave me tons of Research Methods, a lot of Religion, some packages of Philosophy and only one good information, the first class of Psychology, the fat man said very sad..... talking low level voice and captured with a sound system:
You will learn a lot of trashes here (he was fired that year...cannot tell true!), and they will say that those bull s---- are very important to you, your will see Rorschach crazy butterflies, but do not say that, they will think you are a gay!.....and they will challenge you to understand a lot of crazy guys with astonished theories of the shadow of the transparent glass, how black it is.
But i will give you all the "Certificate of Psychology Course Completed".... take into your account that each one of us think deeply, despite the words dennie, that they are the best.... they are, alike you all are, terrible defended against the others, afraid of the others, and create some "theather adequated personalitty" to be his "imagine" in this life..... some life alike a theather.... you have to receive a good money to hear all the lies the guy will tell you... for monthes, till the day he started to say the true.... this way, he will face himself and will find solution by himself.....you try to imagine things and make a good face of attention, beeing not listening nothing....he will be cured, he will be good to talk and to find solutions or not solutions to their problem...you have to collect the money and provide him a confortable environment to sit and talk, and they must believe you are listening, despite you are thinking what to do next weekend.
I was shoked!...could see not too wrong the man....i had my "Certificate" the first day, all i had related the informs are not used.....maybe ohms law can be the answer for our problems related electronics too.
My old friend till, i became fat, enormous and i tried some "fantastic new drug", developed in one drugstore garage.... the man create a miracle poison to turn the fat ones a very thin and pretty guys.... i made a lot of pu pu and a lot of pi pi, always inside the WC, but another result was magnificent.... the white pilule, with the white powder....made me smile all the time, i could not go to buried no one!..... i was laughing of disasters..... i lost 25 kilograms and still using the pill, unfortunattelly do not making me smile anymore...but some medicine against depression is usefull sometimes... give this chance to you, as the weather are not cooperating with you, this gray time make us fell bad.
Good luck till
Carlos
Patrick,
I´m not a racist. Some chinese are friends. But they are in the libraray because there is nowere else space for them. Studentenwerk made a chinese Wohnheim, only asian people there, they put two of them in one of those 10m^2 chambers normaly rent to one german student. And they do not charge 50% the normal rent for this 1/2 chamber, but about 80%. Thats racism.
Carlos, don´t use these suspect pills. Better don´t think about beeing fat, and lets meet to do some trecking in south amerika. You will loose fat without thinking about it.
I will not use any drug, i will act and quit university. I know how to do better with my time.
I´m not a racist. Some chinese are friends. But they are in the libraray because there is nowere else space for them. Studentenwerk made a chinese Wohnheim, only asian people there, they put two of them in one of those 10m^2 chambers normaly rent to one german student. And they do not charge 50% the normal rent for this 1/2 chamber, but about 80%. Thats racism.
Carlos, don´t use these suspect pills. Better don´t think about beeing fat, and lets meet to do some trecking in south amerika. You will loose fat without thinking about it.
I will not use any drug, i will act and quit university. I know how to do better with my time.
Till, you are in an unfortunate position. However, you don't know enough yet, to quit the university and learn on your own.
Now, when it comes to professors: Let me relate a story that began 1/3 century ago. In 1971, I decided to audit (sit in) classes at UC Berkeley. One of my professors who taught linear design was Dr. RG Meyer. I learned plenty from his course, including distortion analysis, and problems with negative feedback. Surprisingly, he is actually slightly YOUNGER than I am, so the professor-student relationship is a little odd.
In 1973, while attending a similar graduate course on the same subject, I visited Dr. Meyer during his office hours. He had impressed me with an analysis of 3'rd harmonic suppression and expansion with local feedback. I asked him whether a similar analysis had been done for 5th or higher odd harmonics. He said no, and politely implied that he had no further time at the moment for a student like me. This was normal, between a professor and a student.
However, in 1976, I worked with Matti Otala on a TIM measurement paper, which we presented at the AES in fall, 1976. Dr. Meyer apparently read this paper and recognized my name.
Then in 1978, I attended an ISSCC conference, here in San Francisco. There I again met Dr. Meyer and he recognized me. This time he treated me as a peer, not as a student. I had finally gained some recognition on his level.
Finally, in 1980, I became a paid 'practical' low noise consultant for a project Dr. Meyer was working on, even gave him part numbers and topology suggestions for an ultra-low noise design. This process took almost 10 years!
See how things can progress? But you must cope with your position in life until you become a serious contributor. Then, you too will find life much easier for you, and you too, will be respected by your professors.
Please, don't think that 'you' have all knowledge and understanding enough to shape your own course in your education. Every student feels like they are learning useless nonsense, BUT LATER, you find why the professors made you suffer through it. Don't give up, even though you might need a vacation from the nonsense that you appear to be suffering. Just remember, without an education, you just can't do the most interesting stuff, and putting up with the process of getting a college education is part of the test of your character.
Now, when it comes to professors: Let me relate a story that began 1/3 century ago. In 1971, I decided to audit (sit in) classes at UC Berkeley. One of my professors who taught linear design was Dr. RG Meyer. I learned plenty from his course, including distortion analysis, and problems with negative feedback. Surprisingly, he is actually slightly YOUNGER than I am, so the professor-student relationship is a little odd.
In 1973, while attending a similar graduate course on the same subject, I visited Dr. Meyer during his office hours. He had impressed me with an analysis of 3'rd harmonic suppression and expansion with local feedback. I asked him whether a similar analysis had been done for 5th or higher odd harmonics. He said no, and politely implied that he had no further time at the moment for a student like me. This was normal, between a professor and a student.
However, in 1976, I worked with Matti Otala on a TIM measurement paper, which we presented at the AES in fall, 1976. Dr. Meyer apparently read this paper and recognized my name.
Then in 1978, I attended an ISSCC conference, here in San Francisco. There I again met Dr. Meyer and he recognized me. This time he treated me as a peer, not as a student. I had finally gained some recognition on his level.
Finally, in 1980, I became a paid 'practical' low noise consultant for a project Dr. Meyer was working on, even gave him part numbers and topology suggestions for an ultra-low noise design. This process took almost 10 years!
See how things can progress? But you must cope with your position in life until you become a serious contributor. Then, you too will find life much easier for you, and you too, will be respected by your professors.
Please, don't think that 'you' have all knowledge and understanding enough to shape your own course in your education. Every student feels like they are learning useless nonsense, BUT LATER, you find why the professors made you suffer through it. Don't give up, even though you might need a vacation from the nonsense that you appear to be suffering. Just remember, without an education, you just can't do the most interesting stuff, and putting up with the process of getting a college education is part of the test of your character.
Hi john curl,
That was the most eloquent explanation of why the process exists. It almost makes me want to return to school, even though I am one of those disillusioned dropouts. Almost.
The sad truth is that I am not as brilliant as you have shown yourself and would probably never earn the respect of people like your former prof. The tragedy is that many people with some smarts and much to contribute are run through the obstacle course that is higher learning with the result is that many never get to contribute. With a little more encouragement I could easily have become one of these worker bees at the research labs. No papers or patents but running the numbers on some new cure for XYZ. It is a testament to your character that you have become a peer to your prof.
Now, some would argue that respect should be earned. Respect was all I wanted during my undergraduate years. In the end, all I got was politics. Respect is not throwing down a bunch of equations for people to learn (and mostly by rote). Respect is showing how those equations affect the world around them. Math was never like this. It was a deluge of theory and no explanation of the practice. This is likely what till is getting now.
Like him, self-education has been my only route. Now that I'm older, I do the necessary homework on my own. I needed some statistical analysis at work... so I picked out my old stats text and began reading... looking for the pieces that I needed for the job at hand. Find a problem, go chasing the solution. This is the best way to teach. It's a lot like driving school... we need to go from A to B, learn a little about the car and then away we go. A bit more risky for the instructors but good drivers can't be made any other way.
ensen.
PS: Thank you for being one of the driving instructors.
That was the most eloquent explanation of why the process exists. It almost makes me want to return to school, even though I am one of those disillusioned dropouts. Almost.
The sad truth is that I am not as brilliant as you have shown yourself and would probably never earn the respect of people like your former prof. The tragedy is that many people with some smarts and much to contribute are run through the obstacle course that is higher learning with the result is that many never get to contribute. With a little more encouragement I could easily have become one of these worker bees at the research labs. No papers or patents but running the numbers on some new cure for XYZ. It is a testament to your character that you have become a peer to your prof.
Now, some would argue that respect should be earned. Respect was all I wanted during my undergraduate years. In the end, all I got was politics. Respect is not throwing down a bunch of equations for people to learn (and mostly by rote). Respect is showing how those equations affect the world around them. Math was never like this. It was a deluge of theory and no explanation of the practice. This is likely what till is getting now.
Like him, self-education has been my only route. Now that I'm older, I do the necessary homework on my own. I needed some statistical analysis at work... so I picked out my old stats text and began reading... looking for the pieces that I needed for the job at hand. Find a problem, go chasing the solution. This is the best way to teach. It's a lot like driving school... we need to go from A to B, learn a little about the car and then away we go. A bit more risky for the instructors but good drivers can't be made any other way.
ensen.PS: Thank you for being one of the driving instructors.
Folks:
This is the pearl of the day:
Fortunately, I listened years ago when someone told me this at a time when I was asking similar questions to some in this discussion lately.
For all of you that are young students (or old ones ) PLEASE remember John's comment at those times of frustration and hang in there; you will not regret it!
Thanks again, John!
mlloyd1
slipping as he steps off of soap box
This is the pearl of the day:
john curl said:
Fortunately, I listened years ago when someone told me this at a time when I was asking similar questions to some in this discussion lately.
For all of you that are young students (or old ones
) PLEASE remember John's comment at those times of frustration and hang in there; you will not regret it!Thanks again, John!
mlloyd1
slipping as he steps off of soap box
FrankWW said:
A guy can NEVER have too many books, cds, lps, cars, rods, guns, dogs.....
If we don't have enough toys we get in trouble.
I have to say though, the internet has cut down on my magazine buying.
What you say about libraries is true. I have a university library card for just in case but every time I go there I throw a swivet.
Staying sort of with the thread's topic, wanted to get a IEEE article the other day and they wanted $35!!!They could easily get me for 10 articles for $50. So the internet isn't a panacea.
Do what? $35? Sheesh. That Uni library card might come in useful; there's a good chance they'd have that IEEE journal in one of the stacks.
Francois.
Wow
As a recent sign-on, I saw an interesting books topic and decided to read through it. Now 28 pages later I am worn out. Interesting discussion, not all that much about books per se. Plenty good book suggestions, don't mean to suggest otherwise.
I am no engineer, I am a technician, I fix things. After 50 years at it, I am constantly amazed at how much I learn every day. ANd I don't mean just new technology. Things I learned or was exposed to many years ago manage to fall into place over time. Get that education.
May I humbly offer one of my favorite books? SOmeone mentioned Bob Pease. I always enjoy reading his Troubleshooting Analog Circuits. I get more out of it every time I do read it.
He talks about why designs don't work. Things look good on paper or screen, but misbehave in the flesh. Issues you all have been touching on.
As a recent sign-on, I saw an interesting books topic and decided to read through it. Now 28 pages later I am worn out. Interesting discussion, not all that much about books per se. Plenty good book suggestions, don't mean to suggest otherwise.
I am no engineer, I am a technician, I fix things. After 50 years at it, I am constantly amazed at how much I learn every day. ANd I don't mean just new technology. Things I learned or was exposed to many years ago manage to fall into place over time. Get that education.
May I humbly offer one of my favorite books? SOmeone mentioned Bob Pease. I always enjoy reading his Troubleshooting Analog Circuits. I get more out of it every time I do read it.
He talks about why designs don't work. Things look good on paper or screen, but misbehave in the flesh. Issues you all have been touching on.
Yes, Bob Pease's book is very good. Also, consider 'Analog Circuit Design' and 'The Art and Science of Analog Circuit Design' both edited by Jim Williams of Linear Technology. Jim is a really capable analog designer.
A third significant book, in my opinion is: 'Intuitive IC Electronics' by Thomas M Frederiksen. This book gives a good insight into solid state internal behavior, or why transistors work, without the really heavy math that is usually involved.
A third significant book, in my opinion is: 'Intuitive IC Electronics' by Thomas M Frederiksen. This book gives a good insight into solid state internal behavior, or why transistors work, without the really heavy math that is usually involved.
back on topic with more books ...
In addition to the great recommendations so far, I'll add these two on a slightly different subject:
"Grounding and Shielding Techniques In Instrumentation" by Ralph Morrison
"Noise Reduction Techniques In Electronic Systems" by Henry Ott
Subject matter obvious from titles. These texts help address some of the subtle issues that several of the experts have shared: stated simply, that it takes more than a great circuit topology and the best (most expensive, best sounding, whatever ...) parts.
Anyone who has watched a distortion measuing device while just moving a ground lead knows what I'm talking about ...
mlloyd1
In addition to the great recommendations so far, I'll add these two on a slightly different subject:
"Grounding and Shielding Techniques In Instrumentation" by Ralph Morrison
"Noise Reduction Techniques In Electronic Systems" by Henry Ott
Subject matter obvious from titles. These texts help address some of the subtle issues that several of the experts have shared: stated simply, that it takes more than a great circuit topology and the best (most expensive, best sounding, whatever ...) parts.
Anyone who has watched a distortion measuing device while just moving a ground lead knows what I'm talking about ...
mlloyd1
May I summarize?
Semiconductors
‘Semiconductor devices, physics and Technology’ (S. M. Sze)
'Analog Circuit Design' and 'The Art and Science of Analog Circuit Design' by Jim Williams
'Intuitive IC Electronics' by Thomas M Frederiksen
General electronics
'Radiotron Designers Handbook'
'Electronics and Radio Engineering' by Terman
‘Network Analysis and Feedback Amplifier Design’, by Hendrik W. Bode
'The Art of Electronics' Horowitz and Hill
'Analysis and Design of Analog Integrated Circuits' by Grey/Meyer
'Electronic Engineering' Alley/Atwood
'Analog Integrated Circuits for Communication' by Pederson/Mayaram
Jiri Dostal's Operational Amplifiers
U.Tietze und Ch.Schenk,’Hableiter-schaltungstechnik’ Springer -Verlag, Berlin
E.H.Nordholt, ‘Design of High-Performance Negative Feedback Amplifiers’
‘Grounding and Shielding Techniques In Instrumentation’ by Ralph Morrison
’Noise Reduction Techniques In Electronic Systems’ by Henry Ott
analog, ti and lineartech web sites
Audio electronics
Ben Duncan' s book on amplifier design
Introduction to Electroacoustics and Audio Amplifier Design, W. M. Leach
Doug Self's books
J L Hood ‘Audio Electronics’ and ‘The Art of Linear Electronics’
‘High-Power Audio Amplifier Construction Manual’ G. Randy Slone
Paul Skritek Handbuch der Audio – Schaltungstechnik
old JAES, Audio, Wireless World, TAA (Audio Electronics)
Semiconductors
‘Semiconductor devices, physics and Technology’ (S. M. Sze)
'Analog Circuit Design' and 'The Art and Science of Analog Circuit Design' by Jim Williams
'Intuitive IC Electronics' by Thomas M Frederiksen
General electronics
'Radiotron Designers Handbook'
'Electronics and Radio Engineering' by Terman
‘Network Analysis and Feedback Amplifier Design’, by Hendrik W. Bode
'The Art of Electronics' Horowitz and Hill
'Analysis and Design of Analog Integrated Circuits' by Grey/Meyer
'Electronic Engineering' Alley/Atwood
'Analog Integrated Circuits for Communication' by Pederson/Mayaram
Jiri Dostal's Operational Amplifiers
U.Tietze und Ch.Schenk,’Hableiter-schaltungstechnik’ Springer -Verlag, Berlin
E.H.Nordholt, ‘Design of High-Performance Negative Feedback Amplifiers’
‘Grounding and Shielding Techniques In Instrumentation’ by Ralph Morrison
’Noise Reduction Techniques In Electronic Systems’ by Henry Ott
analog, ti and lineartech web sites
Audio electronics
Ben Duncan' s book on amplifier design
Introduction to Electroacoustics and Audio Amplifier Design, W. M. Leach
Doug Self's books
J L Hood ‘Audio Electronics’ and ‘The Art of Linear Electronics’
‘High-Power Audio Amplifier Construction Manual’ G. Randy Slone
Paul Skritek Handbuch der Audio – Schaltungstechnik
old JAES, Audio, Wireless World, TAA (Audio Electronics)
Re: another book
Excellent book....now only available on CD here:
http://www.innovatia.com/ACKTS_AD.htm
smoking-amp said:
Excellent book....now only available on CD here:
http://www.innovatia.com/ACKTS_AD.htm
If some of you folks would just buy 'The Art of Electronics' you would be WAY AHEAD of the game. 90% of everything that an amateur would need is in this one book. Also, it is readable. More so than many other books named in the survey. I have hundreds of textbooks, but I don't recommend them all to you, because they are specialized, arcane, and seemed interesting to me at the time of purchase. How about Maxwell's original papers? Heaviside anyone? Steinmetz? And you people talk about first principles! ;-)
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