World's best Tweeters Blind Testing

Charles Darwin · 2016-08-30 8:37 pm

Toaster said:
Your preferences may be due to the driver's THD- even if research suggests otherwise- but it may be that other factors are also involved or involved instead, perhaps one or more other design features that correlate with or causally contribute to lower THD.

Who knows?

However I can't think of any speaker related artefact that sounds like THD.
Admittedly amplifier THD sounds very similar but I always keep enough headroom so that audible amp distortion is never an issue.

JonBocani · 2016-08-30 8:40 pm

wanted to throw in the arena RAAL's 140-15 or 210-10 but it seems the 70-20XR is really the king of ribbons, despite his relatively low sensitivity...

JonBocani · 2016-08-30 8:43 pm

Best bang for the bucks, subjectively speaking, would be the Airborne RT-4001:

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

Measures much better than specs shows... Seems to be around 93db 1w/1m and besides a bump around 14-16khz, the FR is pretty flat from 3.5khz to 20khz.

Here is the EQ i had to make:

6100hz -1.9db Q5.4 peak
18500 +0.8db Q1.4 high-shelf
15000 -6.3db Q2.0 peak

jcga · 2016-08-30 8:58 pm

JonBocani said:
wanted to throw in the arena RAAL's 140-15 or 210-10 but it seems the 70-20XR is really the king of ribbons, despite his relatively low sensitivity...

I had both the 140-15D and the 70-20XR ribbons and I would not say that the second one is the king. It all depends at which frequency you want to cut them.

The 70-20XR exhibit some high distortion below 4 kHz so I ended up with a LR24 at 3.5kHz for it and of course you need to find a suitable driver (read with adequate polar response up to 3.5k) to go with it

Under same conditions, the 140-15D can be crossed as low as 2kHz LR24

JonBocani · 2016-08-30 9:03 pm

The 70-20XR exhibit some high distortion below 4 kHz so I ended up with (...)

I played thousand's of hours with all RAALs and i don't share your view about the 70-20XR... At all.

Are you sure you didnt have some defective unit(s) ?

I crossed my 140-15D and 140-15DAM as low as 1.4khz (300db/oct slope) without problem and about 1.9khz for the 70-20XR.

Comfort zone would be 1.8khz+ for the 140-15 and 2.2khz+ for the 70-20.

4khz wouldnt make any sense, unless you're using 6db/oct

JonBocani · 2016-08-30 9:05 pm

anyways... 140-15D and 70-20XR are both super-excellent drivers.

jcga · 2016-08-30 9:09 pm

JonBocani said:
I played thousand's of hours with all RAALs and i don't share your view about the 70-20XR... At all.

Are you sure you didnt have some defective unit(s) ?

I crossed my 140-15D and 140-15DAM as low as 1.4khz (300db/oct slope) without problem and about 1.9khz for the 70-20XR.

Comfort zone would be 1.8khz+ for the 140-15 and 2.2khz+ for the 70-20.

4khz wouldnt make any sense, unless you're using 6db/oct

I wrote "WITH LR24" (Linkwitz Riley 4th order so 24dB/octave) and your answer is with 300 dB/octave...
Do you really think that everyone use FIR filter with a 300dB/octave slope ?
And by the way, I would love to see a distortion plot of the 70-20XR at let's say 85 dB or 90 dB / 1 m

JonBocani · 2016-08-30 9:14 pm

jcga said:
I wrote "WITH LR24" (Linkwitz Riley 4th order so 24dB/octave) and your answer is with 300 dB/octave...
Do you really think that everyone use FIR filter with a 300dB/octave slope ?
And by the way, I would love to see a distortion plot of the 70-20XR at let's say 85 dB or 90 dB / 1 m

Yeah... and on the manufacturer's website, look what we found:

World’s smallest form factor for a true ribbon of just 1.8 kHz cutoff frequency, reliable, able to handle a lot of power, sounding like it doesn’t exist... All that by using only one series capacitor as a complete L-R 4th order crossover at 1.8k

:trapper:

http://www.raalribbon.com/products_flatfoil_70-20xr.htm

JonBocani · 2016-08-30 9:17 pm

I would love to see a distortion plot of the 70-20XR at let's say 85 dB or 90 dB / 1 m

Thanks to this blind test, we'll soon see (hear) if there is any AUDIBLE distortion among all drivers, if within mechanical/electrical limits...

Let me raise some doubts.

jcga · 2016-08-30 9:19 pm

JonBocani said:
Yeah... and on the manufacturer's website, look what we found:

World’s smallest form factor for a true ribbon of just 1.8 kHz cutoff frequency, reliable, able to handle a lot of power, sounding like it doesn’t exist... All that by using only one series capacitor as a complete L-R 4th order crossover at 1.8k

RAAL: 70-20XR

OK, if this is your answer, sorry for having jumped in your thread
Good luck

JonBocani · 2016-08-30 9:21 pm

jcga,
4khz @ 24db/oct is a very high crossing point for any tweeter used for normal domestic SPL.

It makes sense for the 210-10, maybe for the 70-10 but surely not for the 70-20.

JonBocani · 2016-08-30 9:25 pm

OK, if this is your answer, sorry for having jumped in your thread
Good luck

Sorry to hear about your thin-skinned condition but that's downright misinformation of your part. Couldnt let that pass, especially when the (trustworthy) manufacturer's says the opposite...

JonBocani · 2016-08-30 9:35 pm

Here is some measurements on the 70-20XR:

https://app.box.com/shared/ja2a7hjsbe58a7jo6v4c

AllenB · 2016-08-30 10:46 pm

JonBocani said:
Best bang for the bucks, subjectively speaking, would be the Airborne RT-4001:

I wouldn't have felt that comfortable with these units not being terminated as intended.

Face · 2016-08-31 12:19 am

I also have a pair of OEMs. I'm thinking there must be a couple of variables of how it's built depending on who orders them. Mine measure very flat, but due to rising distortion, there's no way they could be used down to 1.8k, or even 2.5k. I crossed at 4k to a SS 10F and it worked out very well.

Jay · 2016-08-31 4:23 am

Charles Darwin said:
See for yourself and try the Klippel test: Listening Test

I passed at -45dB and failed at -48dB so I'd say for me 0.5% is just about audible but I can't say for sure if it is my ears or my speakers that were the limiting factor.

If anyone want to see how far this kind of test can be passed, please search listening tests posted by Pavel Macura (PMA) here in this very website. The Klippel test is ridiculously easy.

youknowyou · 2016-08-31 5:02 am

hey jon, do you think tweeters wont sound much different once eq'ed to measure the same just like in your midrange test?

JonBocani · 2016-08-31 5:28 am

youknowyou said:
hey jon, do you think tweeters wont sound much different once eq'ed to measure the same just like in your midrange test?

Good question. I don't know yet, but we'll find out soon...

My gut feeling says it's gonna be easier to identify than midranges.
Anyways, directivity will be a big factor here and the non-stereo set-up won't tell all the story.

JonBocani · 2016-08-31 5:43 am

Scanspeak ?

http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/r2604-833000.pdf

http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d3004-662000.pdf

pretty decent natural FR

jcga · 2016-08-31 8:19 am

JonBocani said:
Sorry to hear about your thin-skinned condition but that's downright misinformation of your part. Couldnt let that pass, especially when the (trustworthy) manufacturer's says the opposite...

Funny really !

You said something : the 70-20 is the King
I said : it depends due to rise in distortion
you said: I cut them at 300 dB/octave and read what the manufacturer wrote
I said: show me a distortion plot
You said: listening will tell and you brought some measurement made years ago on a full system with MLSSA AND without any distortion plots

Don't get me wrong. I have both 140-15D and 70-20RX AM and I think that they are among the best tweeters I ever had under my hands.

and here is my last post in your thread: you can see a recent distortion plot of the 70-20RX AM I did without any crossover from 200 Hz to 20kHz

Regards from France
the thin-skinned condition guy

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