I'm really hoping people with line arrays will chime in. I know this is a thread about my particular setup but there seem to be a lot of readers with plans for arrays after reading my thread. Judging by the start of a number of those project on this thread and the ones preceding this thread and the number of PM's I get with more questions. So instead of just my opinion, and the ones I'm able to collect by having others write about it after listening over here I'd like to offer more opinions to those thinking of building arrays.
Personally I'm already sold on the concept. With the note that a bit of room consideration is needed to get even better results and I also favour DSP to get more out of it. But we all do things a bit different. To me, the recipe is Line Array + Room treatment and (my own mix of) DSP (which is still developing). But what would be the advice to those wanting to start a project like this. Pro's? Cons? comparisons to other speakers? What can we offer to Wes, (wmd916) to help him reach his goal? Or to make other members considering arrays aware of what to expect?
Personally I'm already sold on the concept. With the note that a bit of room consideration is needed to get even better results and I also favour DSP to get more out of it. But we all do things a bit different. To me, the recipe is Line Array + Room treatment and (my own mix of) DSP (which is still developing). But what would be the advice to those wanting to start a project like this. Pro's? Cons? comparisons to other speakers? What can we offer to Wes, (wmd916) to help him reach his goal? Or to make other members considering arrays aware of what to expect?
Last edited:
I know there are a few members here that had other types of drivers but non the less had a fun and pleasant experience with arrays. I'm not trying to exclude you guys but it is apparent both of you (you know who you are) are having plans to build new/better performing arrays.
That sounds like me!
I miss my arrays, even though I like my 1772s... but even if they have nice sound altogether, I miss the staging the arrays had.
Even with only 16 drivers (and not that great either), the soundstage and presence they had was great for most recordings, and movies!
Unfortunately, they are now screwed horizontally to a ceiling in a huge living room... totally wrong setup and a sad ending for them.... plus, there's nothing I can say about that to the new owner as they would lose face (an asian thing...)
Been trying to get TC9s or somewhat an equivalent driver, but it's been impossible so far.
What I remember from my arrays was pinpoint imaging, a huge soundstage and fast, fast response.
There was surely no blurring of the sound here.
Lifestyle of listening...
Right,
Most of my experiences with horns have been with PA systems for live performances. I was, in fact, the sound man. As many of You know, most speakers for these types of systems have horns for the highs only, at best, above 1000 Hz. So I can not speak a case for "true" 3-way horn designs, like Synergy or Avande Grande systems. (Most would be lucky to fit a real bass horn in their room ).
The last show I did was at a local ski lounge, last winter. The room had 12 foot tall ceilings, mostly flat with some cathedral sections in the middle where there was a big hole in the room, overlooking the sitting room downstairs. The width was about 40 feet and the length was about 120, with the hole being 60 feet out from the stage. So the sitting area was divided into two halves, the larger half close to the stage and the other behind the hole in the back. The hole was about 30 x 30 feet.
The reason I am going through the trouble of describing the room, is because I have had the chance to hear both the horn based PA system I set up there and someone else's Bose line Array system in the same room. You are welcome to laugh, but hear me out. Neither one of these speaker systems are designed to level we are aspiring to attain with our projects for our homes. More on this point later...
No need to go into tonality, as the two performances were different music, different electronics, different speaker designs and different sound men. Both shows where enjoyable as live events.
But, lets talk about clarity. When I run the sound, once I have my initial mix, I walk around the room so I can hear what everyone else is hearing. The sound board is usually in a really bad spot, so it is easy in many cases to "over clarify" which wracks the "warmness" and "beat" that most audiences like. Comparing the clarity of the horn based highs to the highs of the line array is night and day, especially when listening on the other side of the hole, (where the floor drops out). Can You guess which system was clear, and which system was muddy? I am embarrassed to confess that my set up was the muddy one, the PA with the direct radiators and horns. The clarity was decent on both systems on the stage side of the room, before the hole, but the Bose arrays where a lot more consistent, as in, they had a more even tonality when you walk across the room, stand up or sit down. The horn was pretty even with-in its directivity pattern, but almost non-existent outside, which was not good for the people sitting outside this zone. Huge difference with the horn directivity when standing/dancing, verses sitting. I will add, that I thought the bass was peaky on both systems, as both systems had point source subs.
So the stuff we are studying about floor bounce, standing waves, and room based comb filtering is very real folks! I do not think there is a coincidence that the pro audio industry is designing more line array products.
And to think, the Bose system, if I recall correctly, uses 2 1/2?" drivers (it might be 3) and I did not perceive any less "sizzle", in fact I thought it was better because it was clearer. And this is in no ways what I would call a James Griffin designed array! The Pro designers really need to read that paper, and Don Keele's as well.
So in regards to this Quote by Lynn Olsen:
"But in practice, they sound different. A lot different. The horn shares traits with electrostats; quick and snappy, although with more weight and a sense of in-the-room physical presence. Direct-radiator arrays usually just sound big, and can be noticeably more blurry than single drivers (particularly if the rear volume is shared between drivers). They should sound like horns, but don't."
I would like to know which arrays Lynn heard and how they were set-up. Let's face it, there really are not too many well designed line arrays out there. Many use very cheap, low quality drivers, most have the drivers spaced too far apart and the majority of them are not tall enough, let alone, that they have the proper EQ and DSP. Throw in cross-over issues, Lord only knows if the spacing between the lines is correct for a given cross-over frequency!
Point I am trying to make here, like Wesayso, has Lynn heard a well designed array in a set-up room with the proper DSP.
I would say that my cheap and cheerful arrays without proper EQ and DSP had "characteristic audible blurring of softness"
Also, I think both Lynn and Wesayso have a valid point on cabinet construction. If You are going thru the trouble to cut all those holes and buy all them speakers, may as well build the best cabinet You can possibly build.
I am not ditching horn systems here. Likewise, I would Love to hear a well designed horn system in a set-up room with the proper DSP.
However, because of my personal listening requirements, where I listen to music, movies and play games in different parts of my room, (sitting on the floor, on the couch and dancing), I need a system that sounds good in all those positions. I have that with the arrays. I believe the horns would be too directional for that. It is great when I have people over to watch movies, because everyone gets a good imaging experience. So your listening lifestyle is important to consider in terms of array verses horn also. I want to share my listening with others and not be glued to one spot.
So I will continue developing and refining arrays. I would hope someone would do the same with horns, and we can see if Wesayso is right:
Actually, I think if both systems where set-up to give ideal listening to a given listening seat; then, Yes, they would sound more alike than different. I would like to see if a full-range horn system can do the "I am in the show" sound. It would maybe work until I got up to dance!
What do You think?
Right
,Most of my experiences with horns have been with PA systems for live performances. I was, in fact, the sound man.
As many of You know, most speakers for these types of systems have horns for the highs only, at best, above 1000 Hz. So I can not speak a case for "true" 3-way horn designs, like Synergy or Avande Grande systems. (Most would be lucky to fit a real bass horn in their room ).The last show I did was at a local ski lounge, last winter. The room had 12 foot tall ceilings, mostly flat with some cathedral sections in the middle where there was a big hole in the room, overlooking the sitting room downstairs. The width was about 40 feet and the length was about 120, with the hole being 60 feet out from the stage. So the sitting area was divided into two halves, the larger half close to the stage and the other behind the hole in the back. The hole was about 30 x 30 feet.
The reason I am going through the trouble of describing the room, is because I have had the chance to hear both the horn based PA system I set up there and someone else's Bose line Array system in the same room. You are welcome to laugh, but hear me out. Neither one of these speaker systems are designed to level we are aspiring to attain with our projects for our homes.
More on this point later...No need to go into tonality, as the two performances were different music, different electronics, different speaker designs and different sound men. Both shows where enjoyable as live events.
But, lets talk about clarity. When I run the sound, once I have my initial mix, I walk around the room so I can hear what everyone else is hearing. The sound board is usually in a really bad spot, so it is easy in many cases to "over clarify" which wracks the "warmness" and "beat" that most audiences like. Comparing the clarity of the horn based highs to the highs of the line array is night and day, especially when listening on the other side of the hole, (where the floor drops out). Can You guess which system was clear, and which system was muddy? I am embarrassed to confess that my set up was the muddy one, the PA with the direct radiators and horns. The clarity was decent on both systems on the stage side of the room, before the hole, but the Bose arrays where a lot more consistent, as in, they had a more even tonality when you walk across the room, stand up or sit down. The horn was pretty even with-in its directivity pattern, but almost non-existent outside, which was not good for the people sitting outside this zone. Huge difference with the horn directivity when standing/dancing, verses sitting. I will add, that I thought the bass was peaky on both systems, as both systems had point source subs.
So the stuff we are studying about floor bounce, standing waves, and room based comb filtering is very real folks! I do not think there is a coincidence that the pro audio industry is designing more line array products.
And to think, the Bose system, if I recall correctly, uses 2 1/2?" drivers (it might be 3) and I did not perceive any less "sizzle", in fact I thought it was better because it was clearer. And this is in no ways what I would call a James Griffin designed array! The Pro designers really need to read that paper, and Don Keele's as well.
So in regards to this Quote by Lynn Olsen:
"But in practice, they sound different. A lot different. The horn shares traits with electrostats; quick and snappy, although with more weight and a sense of in-the-room physical presence. Direct-radiator arrays usually just sound big, and can be noticeably more blurry than single drivers (particularly if the rear volume is shared between drivers). They should sound like horns, but don't."
I would like to know which arrays Lynn heard and how they were set-up. Let's face it, there really are not too many well designed line arrays out there. Many use very cheap, low quality drivers, most have the drivers spaced too far apart and the majority of them are not tall enough, let alone, that they have the proper EQ and DSP. Throw in cross-over issues, Lord only knows if the spacing between the lines is correct for a given cross-over frequency!
Point I am trying to make here, like Wesayso, has Lynn heard a well designed array in a set-up room with the proper DSP.
I would say that my cheap and cheerful arrays without proper EQ and DSP had "characteristic audible blurring of softness"
Also, I think both Lynn and Wesayso have a valid point on cabinet construction. If You are going thru the trouble to cut all those holes and buy all them speakers, may as well build the best cabinet You can possibly build.
I am not ditching horn systems here. Likewise, I would Love to hear a well designed horn system in a set-up room with the proper DSP.
However, because of my personal listening requirements, where I listen to music, movies and play games in different parts of my room, (sitting on the floor, on the couch and dancing), I need a system that sounds good in all those positions. I have that with the arrays. I believe the horns would be too directional for that. It is great when I have people over to watch movies, because everyone gets a good imaging experience. So your listening lifestyle is important to consider in terms of array verses horn also. I want to share my listening with others and not be glued to one spot.
So I will continue developing and refining arrays. I would hope someone would do the same with horns, and we can see if Wesayso is right:
Actually, I think if both systems where set-up to give ideal listening to a given listening seat; then, Yes, they would sound more alike than different. I would like to see if a full-range horn system can do the "I am in the show" sound. It would maybe work until I got up to dance!
What do You think?
Though you could make a horn system and a line array have similar FR that seems to be where the comparison should end. Both systems have very different directivity that would be a fact. The real major difference besides directivity is going to be efficiency, you will never beat a horn for efficiency that is a fact. Now does that mean a horn is a superior way to create sound, no/. Don't forget in that Lynn Olsen thread that Lynn is a died in the wool vacuum tube guy who only wants to listen to very high efficiency drivers, nothing else will do for him, he has a very specific and I will add biased approach to speakers.
Another factor to remember is many of the newer pro-audio line array systems are using horn loaded line arrays. These are just specifically designed horns meant to stack in a vertical array, they are not using in most cases except for many bass sections direct radiator devices. These systems really have nothing in common with the line arrays you are talking about here with many stacked direct radiators except for the fact they are vertical arrays. The mids and highs are horn loaded devices in pro-audio, so besides the intent of the radiation pattern they are producing from one of these line arrays I don't know how you can make a real comparison between the two.
I say go ahead an make these full length line arrays for your homes, they have much going for them if you can use something of this size and height. It is just silly to try and compare a line array, a horn loaded system and a flat electrostatic type speaker, they are all very different in how they work and what they do. Enjoy what you prefer, don't fall into the trap that any one system is the best, they are all different.
Another factor to remember is many of the newer pro-audio line array systems are using horn loaded line arrays. These are just specifically designed horns meant to stack in a vertical array, they are not using in most cases except for many bass sections direct radiator devices. These systems really have nothing in common with the line arrays you are talking about here with many stacked direct radiators except for the fact they are vertical arrays. The mids and highs are horn loaded devices in pro-audio, so besides the intent of the radiation pattern they are producing from one of these line arrays I don't know how you can make a real comparison between the two.
I say go ahead an make these full length line arrays for your homes, they have much going for them if you can use something of this size and height. It is just silly to try and compare a line array, a horn loaded system and a flat electrostatic type speaker, they are all very different in how they work and what they do. Enjoy what you prefer, don't fall into the trap that any one system is the best, they are all different.
I'll get back to this discussion a little later, first this hot news flash:
*************************** news flash **************************************************
PE has these drivers (with new specs) on sale. Anyone convinced enough to want to try these,
today is the day to put in your order!
Tymphany TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer
$ 9,00 a piece... new spec sheet, lighter cone, stronger motor.
This might help make a decision for some.... Only valid up to 2/15/2016!
I'd order if I didn't have shipping, import duty taxes etc. to worry about.
*************************** end of news flash ********************************************
*************************** news flash **************************************************
PE has these drivers (with new specs) on sale. Anyone convinced enough to want to try these,
today is the day to put in your order!
Tymphany TC9FD18-08 3-1/2" Full Range Paper Cone Woofer
$ 9,00 a piece... new spec sheet, lighter cone, stronger motor.
This might help make a decision for some.... Only valid up to 2/15/2016!
I'd order if I didn't have shipping, import duty taxes etc. to worry about.
*************************** end of news flash ********************************************
The 40 I ordered were on this sale. I guess I will have to get 10 more now as I didn't notice the new specs. I'm not sure how the 10 I have that I got a few months back would integrate with the new ones.
Wes
If you are ordering large quantities, ask for a "Large QTY quote." You might get a better price. I did.
@kindhornman and artsyallen,
Lynn was not talking about line arrays at all. He was talking about arraying multiple 15" woofers instead of using a single horn-loaded woofer. Read the original post again. I agree with kindhornman though. It can be safely said that horn-loaded systems such as the one he is thinking have been around forever and their problems are well-known also.
@kindhornman and artsyallen,
Lynn was not talking about line arrays at all. He was talking about arraying multiple 15" woofers instead of using a single horn-loaded woofer. Read the original post again. I agree with kindhornman though. It can be safely said that horn-loaded systems such as the one he is thinking have been around forever and their problems are well-known also.
Last edited:
What often gets forgotten is real world development of the human ear in these discussions.
We're less sensitive to lobing and cancellations in the vertical than we are in the horizontal for the simple fact our ears are on the sides of our heads and not top and bottom. We also rely on our hearing and the environment to locate the origin of sound as a perceptual defense mechanism.........evolution folks, not me.....we NEED to know where the danger is even if we can't see it. Lynn's statements holds true in that larger sources within a common range of special cues confuse the brain in it's attempt to localize. Keeping the 800hz-6khz range point source range close avoids multiple lobes, combing........and confusion.
My contention that in the home setting, a tall vertical WWWMTMWWW makes much more sense as it still accomplishes vertical directivity, avoids floor and ceiling bounce in tall enough and is easier to build.
The fullrange line array IMO is a mishmash of driver and technology purposely developed for quite opposite tasks than arraying. The fullrange driver is better suited to single point source nearfield listening at low levels while arrays are simply a commercial application to spread the frequency spectrum as even as possible over a large area and in so, it's a sonic compromise no matter how you slice it.
Sure, fullrange arrays are possible and can be successful....Wesayso and others have proven that........but are they worth the effort?........With the alternatives available for the home listener IMHO I don't believe they are.
We're less sensitive to lobing and cancellations in the vertical than we are in the horizontal for the simple fact our ears are on the sides of our heads and not top and bottom. We also rely on our hearing and the environment to locate the origin of sound as a perceptual defense mechanism.........evolution folks, not me.....we NEED to know where the danger is even if we can't see it. Lynn's statements holds true in that larger sources within a common range of special cues confuse the brain in it's attempt to localize. Keeping the 800hz-6khz range point source range close avoids multiple lobes, combing........and confusion.
My contention that in the home setting, a tall vertical WWWMTMWWW makes much more sense as it still accomplishes vertical directivity, avoids floor and ceiling bounce in tall enough and is easier to build.
The fullrange line array IMO is a mishmash of driver and technology purposely developed for quite opposite tasks than arraying. The fullrange driver is better suited to single point source nearfield listening at low levels while arrays are simply a commercial application to spread the frequency spectrum as even as possible over a large area and in so, it's a sonic compromise no matter how you slice it.
Sure, fullrange arrays are possible and can be successful....Wesayso and others have proven that........but are they worth the effort?........With the alternatives available for the home listener IMHO I don't believe they are.
I'll let Wesayso respond in detail to mayhem13 because it's his thread. Suffice to say I've heard your concerns before and simply don't agree. Is there any point in rehashing the old discussion?
I have built massive horn-loaded systems, OBs, single-driver full range speakers, multi-way speakers, and coaxial speakers. I am not trying to show off, I am saying that I myself have built many different types of speakers so I am not biased against any particular approach. There is no doubt in my mind that my current floor-to-ceiling arrays (coupled with DSP) are the best speaker I have heard. The other approaches can be made to sound very good also. But in the home environment, the floor-to-ceiling arrays are making the right set of compromises.
I have built massive horn-loaded systems, OBs, single-driver full range speakers, multi-way speakers, and coaxial speakers. I am not trying to show off, I am saying that I myself have built many different types of speakers so I am not biased against any particular approach. There is no doubt in my mind that my current floor-to-ceiling arrays (coupled with DSP) are the best speaker I have heard. The other approaches can be made to sound very good also. But in the home environment, the floor-to-ceiling arrays are making the right set of compromises.
Mayhem13, a question first, have you read this entire thread? If you did you'd know I base all my processing on (assumptions and research of) how we hear, not on what a microphone records. I try to use that to my advantage. Funny you should mention that though, as you probably disagree with me about the importance of time coherency, which is based on that same simple principle, our surviving instincts.
Maybe I don't read you right, as it doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Vertical arrays with minimum width do not mess with the fact that we have ears to the sides. On the contrary, that's why the are placed vertically, and not horizontal. That actually leads to the pin point accuracy these arrays have according to more people than me alone.
With 25 drivers sharing the load, and the line effect of the array, we are listening in the near field at all times in our home with a floor to ceiling line array of multiple 3.5"drivers. What lobing in the horizontal plane should we worry about? It wasn't obvious in any measurements so far.
We agreed to differ in our views earlier and this post does not change anything for me. But I asked for views and yours is welcome too. But it isn't clear what you're saying here. Not adding anything new and certainly not answering the question I posted.
How is a WWWMTMWW easier to make and have a higher potential to greatness exactly? I wouldn't say it's a bad choice and it's one I have thought about, following Dunlavy's work. But driver cost probably isn't going to make it cheaper to build.
One of the advantages is the combining output of 25 drivers that each do next to nothing and still create enormous potential.
A WWWMTMWWW does not have that advantage as the tweeter has to do everything by itself, mids only share the load over 2 drivers but the woofers will likely have an advantage with 6 of them. Next problem is the need for crossovers, and as such you determine an ideal listening height. As you can't get the MTM have ideal output in the vertical plane. Depending on the crossover slopes it won't even be that perfect in the horizontal plane either. Look at any speaker with crossover on Stereophile's database to see their off axis plots. See the Dunlavy SC IV:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Does this look so good to you? And this is with first order slopes and one of the best WWMTMWW's I know. It's even time coherent. But it has a small sweet spot.
The Schnell expanding array certainly does better, is a WWwmtmw:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
But this one isn't time coherent. CSD isn't impressive by any means.
In other words: I'm not sold by your better performer. Build it, measure it and we'll see it's potential. If I were you I'd do the MTM part like a Synergy and build a line of woofers on the top and bottom of that from floor to ceiling. Just an idea. It will have draw backs and advantages vs straight line arrays. You pick what you like, you choose what to build.
The towers I have take up less floor space and simply tick more of my boxes.
Asking others to chime in what their specific boxes are and if they get ticked is just trying to help out people determine if it's a good choice for them.
I was hoping you could share the experiences of Pano's Altec setup vs the line arrays you have. I can imagine not being able to really compare, but to me Pano's room and speakers said: serious business! I would have loved to hear that room. I always liked the midrange of my neighbours Altec Barcelona's.
From what I've read those weren't as good as the 416/515. I'm only talking tonal balance here. I mimic it somewhat and probably err on the warm side.
Last edited:
The new spec date is: 04/28/2015. So it's not THAT new, it is a bit different from earlier specs. Mms is a tiny bit down (2.4 gr vs the old 2.6), BL a bit up, not bad things. The rest seems very similar.
At this price I'd get 10 more and use the earlier batch as ambient speakers
.I just noticed your flag. If it hasn't shipped yet, make a call tomorrow? I can imagine paying twice for shipping abroad isn't fun.
Last edited:
sannax,
Think they are worth to mix, myself have ordered first two pieces then two more and last time it was four pieces, time of orders was very different and from three different shops, but when later measured with DATS unit they where all very close except one that had a little lower Fs.
Below is four versions of datasheet i had on my HDD and while the last one is from year 2014 its mostly same data as the year 2015 at PE site. Maybe the biggest difference is Tymphany personal is updating documents for driver to reflect brand now is Tymphany and not Peerless or Vifa and also in they could have got new measurement suite and environment where they test drivers and want to publish those better precise numbers.
Think they are worth to mix, myself have ordered first two pieces then two more and last time it was four pieces, time of orders was very different and from three different shops, but when later measured with DATS unit they where all very close except one that had a little lower Fs.
Below is four versions of datasheet i had on my HDD and while the last one is from year 2014 its mostly same data as the year 2015 at PE site. Maybe the biggest difference is Tymphany personal is updating documents for driver to reflect brand now is Tymphany and not Peerless or Vifa and also in they could have got new measurement suite and environment where they test drivers and want to publish those better precise numbers.
Attachments
Wesayso,
As far as I am concerned the mtm and wmtmw configuration has always had lobbing and comb filtering problems, they have never been a superior design no matter what marketing has to say about it. A simple plot like you just showed would say it all. I think it is just the visual impression that makes people think that they are great, it is visual eye candy, visual bias.
As far as I am concerned the mtm and wmtmw configuration has always had lobbing and comb filtering problems, they have never been a superior design no matter what marketing has to say about it. A simple plot like you just showed would say it all. I think it is just the visual impression that makes people think that they are great, it is visual eye candy, visual bias.
Yes, I agree. for me it does not weigh up to the advantages of the floor to ceiling array in the living room from what I see.
BYRRT@ Thanks, seems to me it won't be a problem
weysayso@ Well, I could do that
I had way more fun than I expected to have with 4.0 HT sound. And that was only using one SS 10F each for my ambient channels. Arrays for ambient channels would have been better as I do notice the distance to speaker plays a larger role with the point source ambient channels. I didn't exactly have that option and this works fine. But I can only imagine having the room and sources for surround using arrays.
What are your center channel plans? I have thought about it, but not felt any need yet. For music not needed at all, for movies it might have advantages. Although I'd rather go for a bigger screen to fit the stage. If you have that big screen already...
Are you thinking of building a HT setup with a projector? Center behind the screen?
Nice collection, I saved those too, I had the rev 1 pdf on file, as my drivers were bought back in 2011. Attached it for those that would like to see it.
Saved it in oktober 2011, when I ordered my drivers.