I agree to the above, look into the Haas kicker functionality, preferably done with diffused sound not from the back, more to the sides in the back, delayed somewhere between 15 and 30 ms after the main pulse. This will give you both imaging and envelopment.
By the way, love that Denon, it even looks a bit like my 25 year old Pioneer A757 Mark II. All business!
Hi wesayso, I will have to see about the diffusers. Too bad this room is not dedicated listening room so acoustic treatment is not 100% "do as you wish" 
.
Got a package from the Hificollective today, which included the caps for the balanced charge coupled (BCC) crossovers. I did get busy asap. Thinking over the point to point layout took some time as the components are quite hefty and there are are so many paralleled caps because I wanted to use my pre existing filters and "quadruple" (which CC requires) them with some extra emphasis on Audyn Reference.
I will put the crossovers into a aluminum enclosures and leave the open xo frames into history. Together with Oyaide Tunami Nigo V2 speaker cable (which I will also do the power cables) I can create fully shielded line from amp to speaker. I might even do "speaker chassis grounding posts" into the speakers, then shielding would be perfect but I'm not sure how it would sound.
Comp driver's filter only visible in the pictures, super tweeter's filter will be done tomorrow (it's past 2AM here). Will have to buy some cork panel for the bottom instead of that "doormat".
.Got a package from the Hificollective today, which included the caps for the balanced charge coupled (BCC) crossovers. I did get busy asap. Thinking over the point to point layout took some time as the components are quite hefty and there are are so many paralleled caps because I wanted to use my pre existing filters and "quadruple" (which CC requires) them with some extra emphasis on Audyn Reference.
I will put the crossovers into a aluminum enclosures and leave the open xo frames into history. Together with Oyaide Tunami Nigo V2 speaker cable (which I will also do the power cables) I can create fully shielded line from amp to speaker. I might even do "speaker chassis grounding posts" into the speakers, then shielding would be perfect but I'm not sure how it would sound.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Comp driver's filter only visible in the pictures, super tweeter's filter will be done tomorrow (it's past 2AM here
). Will have to buy some cork panel for the bottom instead of that "doormat". An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Legis,
Pretty looking box.
The close proximity of the coils to aluminum will lower their inductance value, you may want to space them further away from the panels to reduce the amount of change.
Hi Art, yes I will lift the coils close to the middle of the enclosure once I finish them (now in demo condition, both finally).
Right now I'm listening with the balanced xo's, but have left them unbiased because I want to get hold of their sound prior biasing. I feel they are better even without bias than my previous SE-crossovers, even though there are more components involved. Imaging is deeper and more defined. The sound also feels more coherent. I think something phase related is happening.
Balanced filters are very little touched theme in speaker crossovers for some reason. They are many times used in PLLXOs but in speaker networks I find them extremely rare. They are more expensive for sure, but if one is thinking to do a charge couple xo's, then they can be converted in a balanced charge coupled crossover without extra costs.
Tomorrow after some good listening I will start testing out biasing the crossover. There is one major difference compared to normal CC because I will apply the DC bias to the whole filter circuit. Everything that is behind the first big caps, will be saturated in DC including speaker cables, coils and voice coil.
Right now I'm listening with the balanced xo's, but have left them unbiased because I want to get hold of their sound prior biasing. I feel they are better even without bias than my previous SE-crossovers, even though there are more components involved. Imaging is deeper and more defined. The sound also feels more coherent. I think something phase related is happening.
Balanced filters are very little touched theme in speaker crossovers for some reason. They are many times used in PLLXOs but in speaker networks I find them extremely rare. They are more expensive for sure, but if one is thinking to do a charge couple xo's, then they can be converted in a balanced charge coupled crossover without extra costs.
Tomorrow after some good listening I will start testing out biasing the crossover. There is one major difference compared to normal CC because I will apply the DC bias to the whole filter circuit. Everything that is behind the first big caps, will be saturated in DC including speaker cables, coils and voice coil.
TD-4001's in the house. They need slight changes to xo, but it seems that Truextent-JBL met it's master. I like TAD's accuracy, certain "firmness" and timbral realism with acoustical instruments.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And then there was full TAD Synergy horns (TD-4001 + TL-1602).
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^Based on the first impressions they are really well behaved drivers. Sounds have black background, they are tight, dry and natural like the TD-4001. Bass is very resolutive, mids are gentle and have good inner resolution. No cone scream even though the cone is straight (conical), ribbed, paper-carbon composite cone and not curvilinear one. The cone has some damping agent on front side and sounds more like a piece of wood when knocked, very damped cone in a soft suspension.
They are the best sounding 15 inch woofers for my taste that I have heard in my system. I really like the way how japanese pay attention to every little detail but the price tag can make one flinch a little sometimes.
Amorphous core & silver gold wire Lazy Ribbons just arrived also. I wanted something allegedly very good also on top. Raal won the imaginary competition in my head versus Fostex T500A mkII.
They are the best sounding 15 inch woofers for my taste that I have heard in my system. I really like the way how japanese pay attention to every little detail but the price tag can make one flinch a little sometimes.
Amorphous core & silver gold wire Lazy Ribbons just arrived also. I wanted something allegedly very good also on top. Raal won the imaginary competition in my head versus Fostex T500A mkII.
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Raal Lazy Ribbons turned out to be really fantastic sounding ribbons. They totally annihilated Fountek Neo Pro 5i's (with replaced 5µm foils) making them sound just plain wrong in every way. The sound coming out from Raals sounds SO "massless", clear and timbrally natural (and so on). I was quite jaw-dropped by the difference and I wanted to made a video of the difference. Even the low quality microphone of my phone clearly tells the same story.
Have a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukALk07Jl_4
I also made chassis grounding terminals for the TAD TL-1602's. The inside cabling is (and outside cabling will be) Oyaide Tunami Nigo V2 which is a shielded type cable. The shielding will be continuous from speaker chassis to ground, including crossovers, which are in aluminum enclosures and will also be grounded.
Have a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukALk07Jl_4
I also made chassis grounding terminals for the TAD TL-1602's. The inside cabling is (and outside cabling will be) Oyaide Tunami Nigo V2 which is a shielded type cable. The shielding will be continuous from speaker chassis to ground, including crossovers, which are in aluminum enclosures and will also be grounded.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I highly suggest to try them, they give something to every system imo. Even in speakers that already have super tweeters, an extra tweeters can be added to expand the sound stage and add air by aiming them up/back or rise them quite high to give sense of height and size ("wall of sound") to the sound. Very versatile little things. And then there is also the question of HF quality from fullrange vs. from really low Mms tweeter...
Eminences got retired from Synergies yes, as did the JBL's with Truextents. Is still have them though. TAD's are superior, real reference level drivers, but it has to be heard/exprienced to fully understand what they are about.
In my opinion the superiority of any driver cannot be expressed by pictures or measurements, not really-really. Like the above example of Fountek vs. Raal - both are true ribbons (essentially aluminum foil between neodymium magnets driven through a step-down transformer), with flat freq response, low distortion, low energy storage, wide bandwidth etc. Yet they have massive difference in sound quality with highly resolutive electronics (except the mic I used in recording
). The devil is in the details. Yes, the difference comes down to something that can also be measured with very high resolution measurement system, but measuring them and construing those measurements in a way that explains the heard differences comprehensively is not walk in the park (if even possible).I'm still going with the same settings, no electrical xo (only acoutical) for the three bass channels and balanced/symmetrical "charge coupled" network for comp drivers and super tweeters. To my ears there is no need for eletrical time delays (TAD's did not really change anything timewise) anywhere subjectively, although everything could be made to time better of course (zero EGD, perfect step response).
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Firstly, cheers for such an awesome system, thread, and thank you for posting all of it.
Secondly, the difference between the Fountek and RAAL is simply remarkable, I would not have expected such a difference. They both sound good, but the liveliness of the RAAL is profound.
Keep up the good work!
Secondly, the difference between the Fountek and RAAL is simply remarkable, I would not have expected such a difference. They both sound good, but the liveliness of the RAAL is profound.
Keep up the good work!
At some point I will, probably as an ambient helper tweeter. As soon as funds allow. I loved what my band passed, largely (L-R), delayed and attenuated ambient back speakers did and I just have to experience the tweeters as well to at least cross that off on my list of things to try
.I don't believe my budget will ever stretch to the Raal level though. Some envy here, definitely.
Small TAD vs. Eminence -comparison clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OH1V7Q7ynA
Deltalites:
- More sensitive
- Extends higher (but not needed in my application), although the higher registers have some edginess/glare (can be heard also on video when listened louder)
- Higher Fs and qts, more middle bass
TADs:
- More clean and clear because of the very damped cone (and alnico motor?). On the other hand Delta is more livelier but it's not as pure and the sound quality is not on the same level as TADs.
- At low bass TADs are like very good subwoofers drivers. Loose suspension and silent and linear motor, cone motion is very silent and distortion stays low. They are like subwoofers with really good midrange quality.
- The build is heavy duty and high quality. The thick chassis is like a rock when knocked even though the driver is not attached to a baffle.
Both are very easily applicable drivers due to smooth cone break up region.
Measured front responses without baffle, driver of the floor.
Deltalite 2515:
TAD TL-1602
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OH1V7Q7ynA
Deltalites:
- More sensitive
- Extends higher (but not needed in my application), although the higher registers have some edginess/glare (can be heard also on video when listened louder)
- Higher Fs and qts, more middle bass
TADs:
- More clean and clear because of the very damped cone (and alnico motor?). On the other hand Delta is more livelier but it's not as pure and the sound quality is not on the same level as TADs.
- At low bass TADs are like very good subwoofers drivers. Loose suspension and silent and linear motor, cone motion is very silent and distortion stays low. They are like subwoofers with really good midrange quality.
- The build is heavy duty and high quality. The thick chassis is like a rock when knocked even though the driver is not attached to a baffle.
Both are very easily applicable drivers due to smooth cone break up region.
Measured front responses without baffle, driver of the floor.
Deltalite 2515:
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TAD TL-1602
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Did you listen the clip?
Those HD plots were measured over a week ago when TAD's were just arrived and not played even for 30 minutes. I will see if measuring them again has changed something. I can see their suspension is not yet fully broken in, Fs is still on the high side (25,5Hz vs. ~21Hz when broken in).
Yes the Deltalites have slightly lower HD at those pictures. However the purity of sound is very multifactored attribute. TAD's have smaller inductance, their "system" is less resonant (= impedance plot very smooth except couple quirks), their cone is very damped, suspension is silent etc. Second order harmonic distortion <1% is less meaningfull in my experience what comes to sense sound's purity (also consider tube amplifiers), H3 and higher harmonics are the bad ones and also resonances and stored energy plays bigger role than H2.
Here's the impedance plots of TAD and Deltalite measured earlier today.
Deltalite:
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Deltalite zoomed:
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TAD:
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TAD zoomed:
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Now I have finally sealed the last "baking oven" (larger tapped horns), and the system is getting closer to the point where I can jus listen to the music , or at least focus on smaller tweaks, cabling etc.. Still some things to do though, as there always is (and will be). The first one would be changing the "outer cabling" from lamp cords to Tunami, I have 30m roll of Tunami already waiting in the balcony in freezing winter (nature's own cryo treatment), waiting for the inspiration.
I changed the inner cablings completely to Oyaide Tunami Nigo v2, made basket groundin terminals for all the woofers (comp drivers are still ungrounded), grounded them, and added some more damping to the start of the flare of the THs. The change in sound was positive.
I made some digital versus analog source comparisons with the newest settings. The turntable is Small Audio Manufacture (SAM) Reference, SAM Calista II tonearm, Audio Technica AT150MLX cartridge and Denon PMA-2020AE's integrated RIAA. Digital source is foobar2000/flac and Denon DCD-2020AE CD-player's usb input.
Nightwish
Analog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6INe6dOcZ0Y
Digital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJHUoNdmbi4
Opeth
Analog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCXFtJdaZjY
Digital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDc7UbfbeLo
, or at least focus on smaller tweaks, cabling etc.. Still some things to do though, as there always is (and will be). The first one would be changing the "outer cabling" from lamp cords to Tunami, I have 30m roll of Tunami already waiting in the balcony in freezing winter (nature's own cryo treatment), waiting for the inspiration.I changed the inner cablings completely to Oyaide Tunami Nigo v2, made basket groundin terminals for all the woofers (comp drivers are still ungrounded), grounded them, and added some more damping to the start of the flare of the THs. The change in sound was positive.
I made some digital versus analog source comparisons with the newest settings. The turntable is Small Audio Manufacture (SAM) Reference, SAM Calista II tonearm, Audio Technica AT150MLX cartridge and Denon PMA-2020AE's integrated RIAA. Digital source is foobar2000/flac and Denon DCD-2020AE CD-player's usb input.
Nightwish
Analog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6INe6dOcZ0Y
Digital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJHUoNdmbi4
Opeth
Analog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCXFtJdaZjY
Digital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDc7UbfbeLo
System looks great and thanks sharing details bits and pieces.
If you like little subjective feedback analog verse digital i had a chance listen only the Nightwish recording because the other had some country copyright blocking, playback was desktop full range speaker covering around 60-20kHz bandwidth.
Both videos think sound good and nice hardware to look at in session : ) analog is more airy also sound bit more live, a little unsure but sense digital sounds a bit more dynamic but its sure one percieve notes and instruments is better divided and stands clearer.
If you like little subjective feedback analog verse digital i had a chance listen only the Nightwish recording because the other had some country copyright blocking, playback was desktop full range speaker covering around 60-20kHz bandwidth.
Both videos think sound good and nice hardware to look at in session : ) analog is more airy also sound bit more live, a little unsure but sense digital sounds a bit more dynamic but its sure one percieve notes and instruments is better divided and stands clearer.
Thanks. Yes the vinyl sounds livelier than digital, although I was playing files from the computer, which does not sound as good as from a CD (even though the DAC is the same).
I wonder why the Opeth was blocked. I have uploaded two videos with Opeth before and they worked ok. Maybe different albums get different treatment or owner of the intellectual property has changed it's policy regarding Youtube since my last Opeth upload.
Here's Rush sample instead. (The record is from fleamarket and pops more.)
Analog: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa-0Ilu8enU
Digital: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQrTf_h3qIM
Here's the two samples as sound files (electrical domain, not acoustical), vinyl recorded with cheap Esi sound card's line level input from amplifier's rec out. Rush
By the way, I ordered Nikon D5300 digital SLR camera and Rode Stereo Videomic Pro today. Soon my clips will most likely have massive enhancement in sound quality.
This clip promises a lot for the Rode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOZgP4L2FeE
I have sometimes wondered what mic Kenrick Sound uses to record their clips, they sound good.
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