eljoantonyn,
Congrats! Wish you all the best on this new journey.
wesayso,
Great post with many important points:
Bang on target - I have come to believe that is key... cone area matters. Going low in Hz like say mid 30s is possible in MLTL cabs with a driver like the Alpair 10.x, and electronica can sound very good as long as you are within moderate volumes. But the "energy" that is required for enjoying rock music is lacking most of the times... I daresay some of the very good but small Sd mid-woofers get similar sort of reviews/impressions. I need to experiment more, but most likely the 60-300 Hz needs to be covered by a bigger cone to really enjoy rock/metal genres at higher volumes,
+1
Well my friend, you have an exceptional speaker system... it is not merely good performing.
I am sure less complex systems can be put together also with the help of forum members. But for a single driver speaker which will do rock well - still haven't found what I am looking for.
Congrats! Wish you all the best on this new journey.
wesayso,
Great post with many important points:
Bang on target - I have come to believe that is key... cone area matters. Going low in Hz like say mid 30s is possible in MLTL cabs with a driver like the Alpair 10.x, and electronica can sound very good as long as you are within moderate volumes. But the "energy" that is required for enjoying rock music is lacking most of the times... I daresay some of the very good but small Sd mid-woofers get similar sort of reviews/impressions. I need to experiment more, but most likely the 60-300 Hz needs to be covered by a bigger cone to really enjoy rock/metal genres at higher volumes,
+1
Well my friend, you have an exceptional speaker system... it is not merely good performing.
I am sure less complex systems can be put together also with the help of forum members. But for a single driver speaker which will do rock well - still haven't found what I am looking for.
I'm going to have to disagree with you guys. A good speaker cannot play anything. Well recorded rock might sound great, but most commercial rock was mixed, mastered and otherwise OPTIMIZED to sound good on lousy systems with tons of compression.
Now back in the 70s most people had good stereos, and recordings were IMO better. However, most of them were really mucked up later when remastered for CD, with the presence range being significantly boosted most of the time.
Let's assume for argument a good speaker is a mastering monitor type. It would have flat frequency response, (say +/- 1.5db or better) very low distortion, very clean impulse and impressive CSD. A speaker like this will really make flaws in the recording, digital jaggies, and bad EQ choices readily apparent and frankly unpleasant. Good recordings on the OTOH will sound great. This is an audiophile cliche, but it is true.
Now back in the 70s most people had good stereos, and recordings were IMO better. However, most of them were really mucked up later when remastered for CD, with the presence range being significantly boosted most of the time.
Let's assume for argument a good speaker is a mastering monitor type. It would have flat frequency response, (say +/- 1.5db or better) very low distortion, very clean impulse and impressive CSD. A speaker like this will really make flaws in the recording, digital jaggies, and bad EQ choices readily apparent and frankly unpleasant. Good recordings on the OTOH will sound great. This is an audiophile cliche, but it is true.
Sd is everything....Almost!
I agree with Wesayso and the others who say surface area (Sd) is vital.
Minimum dynamic / requirements for my listening preferences in my 40 square meter room are :
(1) A pair of 10 or 12 inch subs / low mid-range drivers covering up to 300Hz
(2) A good full-range / wide band driver above this.
(3) Enough power so that the amps never exceed 50% of their max output.
Another general guide line I try to stick to is that if your drivers are exceeding 70% of Xmax you need to change something, either:
(1) Use more drivers
(2 )Or a bigger driver
(3 )Or or lower the crossover over point to relief the strain on which ever driver(s) are moving too much
(4) Or some combination of the above.
Hope this helps
Derek.
PS Attached is a 15 inch bass / low midrange crossed over at 300Hz to a 4.5 inch BMR optimised for 250Hz and above. Cabinet is only 8 inch's deep.
I agree with Wesayso and the others who say surface area (Sd) is vital.
Minimum dynamic / requirements for my listening preferences in my 40 square meter room are :
(1) A pair of 10 or 12 inch subs / low mid-range drivers covering up to 300Hz
(2) A good full-range / wide band driver above this.
(3) Enough power so that the amps never exceed 50% of their max output.
Another general guide line I try to stick to is that if your drivers are exceeding 70% of Xmax you need to change something, either:
(1) Use more drivers
(2 )Or a bigger driver
(3 )Or or lower the crossover over point to relief the strain on which ever driver(s) are moving too much
(4) Or some combination of the above.
Hope this helps
Derek.
PS Attached is a 15 inch bass / low midrange crossed over at 300Hz to a 4.5 inch BMR optimised for 250Hz and above. Cabinet is only 8 inch's deep.
Attachments
Studio monitors are different beasts....
Greg makes a good point....And he knows his studio monitors, he is well qualified on this subject!
I had a very well respected loudspeaker designer round here and this very point came up....There is a gulf of difference between a great studio monitor and a great domestic speaker....
A great domestic speaker wont sell unless it makes everything sound good or very good.....
A great studio monitor wont sell unless it tells the truth....
There is a very big difference!!
Cheers
Derek.
PS Greg, now I've got the top end sparkling without the AMT....All it needed was the right upstream components ie not the Yamaha!
We now have our own DSP, DAC's, and power amps. Next time you are over at the "Abbey" pop in!
Greg makes a good point....And he knows his studio monitors, he is well qualified on this subject!
I had a very well respected loudspeaker designer round here and this very point came up....There is a gulf of difference between a great studio monitor and a great domestic speaker....
A great domestic speaker wont sell unless it makes everything sound good or very good.....
A great studio monitor wont sell unless it tells the truth....
There is a very big difference!!
Cheers
Derek.
PS Greg, now I've got the top end sparkling without the AMT....All it needed was the right upstream components ie not the Yamaha!
We now have our own DSP, DAC's, and power amps. Next time you are over at the "Abbey" pop in!
Is it me or the oldest release of Pet Sounds are sounding better than the reworked ones ?
I would like so much the old master bands to be re used the less compressed as it's possible ! They launched golded CDs, platined Cds, etc... but a Good Beatles, Lou Reed, Bowie, whatever you like with such quality will re launch the hifi world (maybe) just by testimonials ("hey you know I listened to the Betales like I never heard, I wanted to garbadge my Iphone")
I'm with Greg !
What can be done for rock is also a TLH with some 12" FR like the one EMS speakers is making or some others brands to have a higher XO than the more conventional 300/400 Hz with an other little FR : many choice here ! Sort of Full FR FAST system ! The higher XO helping to rock more with a higher Mms ! ALso the mid-bass of a TLH helps for the rock I assume ! or of course to stay on the topic a 15" FR à la Bigun member in his thread "I feel this hobby has to stop" = I found a system good enough who rocks ! here an FR AudioNirvana with a high QTS (better for rock) in an open rear cabinet (aka U-frame !)...
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Greg, I do think I understand what you're saying, maybe I'm lucky in the music I like. Though I definitely battle with mastering differences on CD's, in fact I wrote a rant about it on my own thread. But can we get a definition of "Hard Rock" as defined by the OP?
So far what works for me;
Led Zeppelin (my all time favourite band)
The Doors (some excellent stuff there)
Rammstein
Steve Vai
Whitesnake (even their more garbled 1987 and Slip of the Tongue)
Zappa (excellent!)
Opeth
Kula Shaker
Velvet Revolver
Soundgarden (including Chris Cornell solo)
Stone Temple Pilots
Thin Lizzy
Rival Sons
Russian Circles
A Perfect Circle
System of a Dawn (was surprised it worked that well!)
Ayreon (beautiful, especially Into The Electric Castle)
Alice in Chains
Alice Cooper
The Forest Rangers
The Who (marvellous recordings there)
To name the few I've tested so far. Still struggling with finding decent Van Halen masterings, except for the DCC debut version mastered by Steve Hoffman. I Noticed I liked his work on the Doors CD's as well. Not that the rest of the VH catalog is bad sounding, just missing the bottom end for me, on CD anyway. But I never really cared for the left panned guitar. The jewels for me are the more open guitar tracks. Luckily they do exist.
I'd call this Hard Rock, some of it Classic Rock. But that's about as far as it goes for me. Still have a lot more stuff to try. I was in my teens in the 80's and grew up listening to the hair metal but like the early Rock stuff more.
I've listened way too much to "polite" music while working on my speakers. Can I hear compression? Yes I can. Would I like a more Audiophile version? Sometimes...
But I appreciate the above for what it is. If this is the OP's genre I can whole Hartley recommend arrays. Just make sure to do it with a full range driver that doesn't have a ringing top end. I left out a lot more that would fit categories like Progressive Rock etc. but the above is merely what I tried and liked so far that I would call "Hard Rock". Not nearly listened to every thing I've collected trough the years.
So far what works for me;
Led Zeppelin (my all time favourite band)
The Doors (some excellent stuff there)
Rammstein
Steve Vai
Whitesnake (even their more garbled 1987 and Slip of the Tongue)
Zappa (excellent!)
Opeth
Kula Shaker
Velvet Revolver
Soundgarden (including Chris Cornell solo)
Stone Temple Pilots
Thin Lizzy
Rival Sons
Russian Circles
A Perfect Circle
System of a Dawn (was surprised it worked that well!)
Ayreon (beautiful, especially Into The Electric Castle)
Alice in Chains
Alice Cooper
The Forest Rangers
The Who (marvellous recordings there)
To name the few I've tested so far. Still struggling with finding decent Van Halen masterings, except for the DCC debut version mastered by Steve Hoffman. I Noticed I liked his work on the Doors CD's as well. Not that the rest of the VH catalog is bad sounding, just missing the bottom end for me, on CD anyway. But I never really cared for the left panned guitar. The jewels for me are the more open guitar tracks. Luckily they do exist.
I'd call this Hard Rock, some of it Classic Rock. But that's about as far as it goes for me. Still have a lot more stuff to try. I was in my teens in the 80's and grew up listening to the hair metal but like the early Rock stuff more.
I've listened way too much to "polite" music while working on my speakers. Can I hear compression? Yes I can. Would I like a more Audiophile version? Sometimes...
But I appreciate the above for what it is. If this is the OP's genre I can whole Hartley recommend arrays. Just make sure to do it with a full range driver that doesn't have a ringing top end. I left out a lot more that would fit categories like Progressive Rock etc. but the above is merely what I tried and liked so far that I would call "Hard Rock". Not nearly listened to every thing I've collected trough the years.
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I did listen to Hendrix, and I enjoyed that a lot. But that's definitely one that I would want to spend more time on finding a perfect copy. The right mastering I mean. All of that sort of stuff I mostly have on Vinyl. I just started to go trough my vinyl collection and add to that a digital version of all the stuff I liked and own on vinyl only. And that's still a lot.
Finding the right masterings on CD has been hit and miss so far. Don't want to buy copies I don't like. I've actually bought remasters of stuff I have on vinyl that I've never played, now that I'm playing them I should have looked them up first, for instance on Steve Hoffman's forum or in a DR database. Not that the DR number is a guarantee for a good disk either.
But yes, Rammstein and the Doors are quite different.
This is the most complete list of the OP I found in this thread:
Some of it would be very close to what I have listened to. Audioslave can't be that different from Cornel's solo work, I've listened to Foo Fighters and their recordings are pretty decent, I've skipped Kate Perry and Britney Spears(*) so far (no intention to change that) but listened to Alanis (some good recordings there) and tried some Dance which was awesome though not my thing (I tried Sensation 2002, lots of fun though, but that was Tiesto, not Van Buuren). But this list doesn't make me doubt what I said before.
(*) Closest I came to listening to Britney was this cover.
Finding the right masterings on CD has been hit and miss so far. Don't want to buy copies I don't like. I've actually bought remasters of stuff I have on vinyl that I've never played, now that I'm playing them I should have looked them up first, for instance on Steve Hoffman's forum or in a DR database. Not that the DR number is a guarantee for a good disk either.
But yes, Rammstein and the Doors are quite different.
This is the most complete list of the OP I found in this thread:
Currently, I'm listening to Green Day, Creed, Goo Goo Dolls, Audioslave, Collective Soul, Radiohead, Daughtry, Foo Fighters, Shinedown, 30 Seconds to Mars etc. But, I also have some pop, hip hop and electronic stuff like (Britney Spears
Some of it would be very close to what I have listened to. Audioslave can't be that different from Cornel's solo work, I've listened to Foo Fighters and their recordings are pretty decent, I've skipped Kate Perry and Britney Spears(*) so far (no intention to change that
) but listened to Alanis (some good recordings there) and tried some Dance which was awesome though not my thing (I tried Sensation 2002, lots of fun though, but that was Tiesto, not Van Buuren). But this list doesn't make me doubt what I said before.(*) Closest I came to listening to Britney was this cover
.
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Ronald - even though I'm far too old a fart to enjoy most of the artists on your earlier list, when it comes to the mastering - and for that matter compositions and artistic performances, it's pretty hard to fault virtually anything in the FZ archive - although many of the lyrics I'm sure would still give Tipper Gore a stroke ...
Congrats on the wedding! First things first!
Get the wife in on the project, you'll need her support.
Thanks guyseljoantonyn,
Congrats! Wish you all the best on this new journey.
@wesayso
Yes, I plan to involve her but so far no luck
She says its a waste of money and effort
BTW, I would be posting a summary of this thread later today (its 9 AM here).
Offtopic:
Can you guys help me to select a low cost class d amp/kit on ebay ?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/282945-tda7498-vs-tda-8920b-kit-need-make-decision-now.html
I know, I know. If it is too loud, you are too old. And I am definitely too old. I was classically trained as a youth and never spent much time with what passed for popular music as I aged. Therefore, I never had to suffer through the loudness wars and stupidly bad mixes for iPads etc. So I sit here listening to solo lute music played on and instrument build in 1573 through a pair on single driver speakers of my own design and it is wonderful.
Bob
Bob
Bob Brines !!
An acquaintance of mine have made a pair of fullrange enclosures based on your plans and the sound of that speakers..just incredible, un believable coz it was all coming out from just a 4" driver.
He had a lot of Indian Classical music collection and it was just brilliant.
But as they say, still not suitable for Rock as it produces weird sounds as the SPL goes up.
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Copy that !!
Btw, would an 8 incher like the Dayton 8" "point source" driver work for Rock ?
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