For me, I started with miniDSP and found it to be one of the most significant tools for making diy speakers sound good and even great without the skills and knowledge needed to make good passive XO's. I still admire those who can make a good passive though - sort of the same way that I admire crafstmen from pre industrial era who can make fine mechanical watches by hand. Some claim that passives can sound better - but don't know why.
I agree that the gains to be had with DSP far outweigh the negatives. Or the gains to be had with 24bit/96kHz or even 48kHz/16-bit ADC/DAC to outweigh the negatives.
I agree that the gains to be had with DSP far outweigh the negatives. Or the gains to be had with 24bit/96kHz or even 48kHz/16-bit ADC/DAC to outweigh the negatives.
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Try Beyma 12p80nd with TPL150, and you wont have to look any further. There is nothing better around.
Hi,
Continue your pipe dream of statistically definitive blind tests.
FWIW chuck in a Quad ESL and see how that gets on.
rgds, sreten.
Hi,
So your claiming golden eared status.
So what, most of us aren't, and I doubt xrk971
experiences are any different to most of us.
Cheap BS dig IMO.
rgds, sreten.
Whether or not the Appreciation part of this test will lead to reliable conclusions (or even to be of any help at all) is open for debate, no doubt about that.
On the other hand, the Identification part of this test is much more objective. How easy (or even possible) will be the identification between drivers is the answer we're waiting for.
I mostly do not use them… or active XOs either (if i do XO i usually design for a PLLXO).
dave
Thanx Charles. No info on pre-ring and at 32 bit one would need to know more about the DSP implementation. Firewire or Thunderbolt connectivity would be nice.
dave
They don't mention linear phase (FIR) filters as an option so there won't be any pre-ringing.
Alternatively with 'only' 24/96 convertors but substantially greater internal resolution (76bit):
http://groundsound.com/dcn28.php
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Doubt it.
The unit I'd choose if money were no object (XTA 4 series) has been on the market for longer than that already.
No idea about convertors pre-ringing. Not a problem I've ever come across.
Just heard about that one:
20 DE 8 | Davis Acoustics
Another (very) expensive driver but considered by some among the very finest on the planet.
20 DE 8 | Davis Acoustics
Another (very) expensive driver but considered by some among the very finest on the planet.
no offense but you already comparing apples with oranges, main purpose of mid drivers is to work perfectly around 300-3K hz so if you plan to push them to 7K majority of them will fail as this frequency isn't their territory (except few of them) so I understand what you are trying to achieve but don't see benefit of it's outcome unless this thread is called "best fullrange" and you choose appropriate drivers, anyway good luck with your testing
The thing is: fullranges* are often considered as the best midrange, next to the compression drivers... (which are both more than able to be pushed at 7khz and beyond)... And then the ATC dome which is pretty much alone in his family.
The ''real'' mid territory (+/- 200hz-2500hz) would then be achieved by pretty much any good quality midbass.
If you look at most recent B&W speakers specs, you'll see that xover are now in the 400hz/4khz range...
my opinion -based on experience- the most efficient/promising xover points is in a 4-way with, more or less: 0-100hz (sub), 100-600hz (midbass), 600-4500hz (mid-hi) and 4500hz for the tweeter.
That is the best way to extract the most from each drivers without pushing them out of their comfort zone.
It's always a matter of comparison. Which driver will be the best in the 3.5khz-4.5khz zone... Mid or tweeter ? and then between 100hz and 250hz, Sub or woofer/midbass ?
Few hundreds hours of trial and error with a DSP can give a pretty good idea of the patterns one can stumble upon. With pretty much all drivers out there...
*I say ''fullrange'' but it's never really the case, it's more appropriate to call them ''wideband''...
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Not really, the FR is the single most important thing, so it's hardly scratching the surface, it's more like digging down to the root.
Once your FR is sorted, you have low enough non linear distortion, have controlled and uniform directivity and largely resonance free operation then you're home dry.
A test like this will completely ignore directivity as the mic'd response will only capture the on axis direct sound and ignore the vast majority of the rooms contributions.
XRKs tests have showed that the FR is the only thing that really matters in these kinds of listening tests. Sure distortion would matter if gross, but it never is and dispersion would matter too if these tests were performed in room, but they are not.
DSPs do not need to introduce pre ringing, Just use IIR filters, if you use a linear phase FIR filter then sure.
The only pre ringing you are going to encounter thereafter is with the FIR filter used within the DAC chip itself, this is not something unique to a DSP, it's a part of the D/A conversion process. If you do not like it then you can use a DAC that has a minimum phase filter implemented, there are a number of these on the market that have selectable filters. Or you can use a DAC in which you can program your own filter coefficients.
You could do this DIY without too much difficulty using ready made boards from miniDSP. The difficult part would be finding a DAC that comes with selectable filters that include a linear phase option. TIs PCM5100 series does though and boards for those can be found on ebay for peanuts.
It may well be the ost important, but, to use an analogy of a body of water, you are only looking at the surface… how deep does it go (DDR) and what does the bottom look like.
2 drivers could both be perfectly flat, but if one only goes down 20 dB it will be much less good than one that goes down 40 dB. The TC9 is a good example, fairly flat but not capable of reproducing much detail.
dave
Do you mean linear distortion? Non-linear distortion may be low compared to the usual issues, but after the usual issues have been sorted out, it is still there with its audibility. A certain driver with flat FR might have one ugly 5th/7th order peak somewhere, which will make it different.
XRK tests showed that drivers with flat FR was preferred. But it also showed that drivers with similar FR do sound different (TG9 versus 10F and/or TC9).
I would say you consider them to be the best midrange. There are some that fall into the category of being full range simply because of their small size, but a true mid designed specifically for its task would not be considered full range.
Which is the reason why lots of two ways are so successful and is also a reason why lots of mid bass units are actually used as midrange drivers in lots of three ways. The SEAS W15CY001 for example. Because they do cover that range very successfully.
Which from a technical point of view are poorly designed loudspeakers. Simplistic filters that do not control driver issues, non flat frequency responses and poor off axis performance with no directivity control or matching to speak of.
The FST drive unit is a very well designed mid range, in fact it is one of the best mid range drivers in the world, it's why I mentioned it, but one needs to use it appropriately. It can cover from 300Hz, if used with a 4th order acoustic high pass, and then manage up to around 2.5kHz if it's directivity matched with a suitable tweeter. If you do not do this then you need to lower its upper xover point down to around 2kHz.
Yes it is capable of working much higher, on axis, as its frequency response extends more than one octave beyond this and with low distortion too, but that does not mean you should use it that high. If you do then you have to notch filter it and make do with a compromised off axis response (both vertical and horizontal) and this is not state of the art nor good design.
The only main differences between a good mid bass and a good midrange driver, providing they are of the same diameter, is that the midrange can have greater sensitivity and soft parts tailored specifically for lower excursion requirements, such as the FST surround. But really that's it.
This is only if you are using appropriate drivers tailored towards that goal, you cannot generalise with a statement like this.
If you want to use a mid range driver to cover 600-4.5kHz then it better be a small driver so that you can get the tweeter dang close to it and then your tweeter better also be a small neo thing with a ~70mm diameter faceplate. If not then you are going to introduce off axis issues that make the point of using said crossover frequencies completely pointless.
This is always going to be a question of how is the speakers directivity being handled and how do the off axis curves look. No well designed tweeter is going to struggle with anything in that frequency range.
Or you can simply make objective measurements of the drivers and come to your conclusion within a few minutes to a couple of hours. Loudspeaker design is a science not a black magic and needs to be treated as such.
No I do not. I will reiterate.
Once your loudspeaker system has a nice flat frequency response, has low enough non linear distortion (this means all harmonic products be low enough to be off the audible radar), has its directivity and off axis response well controlled and uses the drivers within it outside of the ranges where they would introduce significant resonances, then you're home dry.
Of course they do no one said anything different. We are capable of perceiving very small changes in FR balance though, as small as 0.5dB, so that still could account for the differences. Then again, so could other factors.
The 10F/8424 is also flat and it's not going to produce detail that is not really there. So called high DDR drivers are generating detail that is not originally in the source via resonance enhanced selective amplification (RESA) from a ringing impulse response. If one likes to hear air or sparkle not originally there, by all means use drivers that ring like a bell. It's clear from the measured IR which drivers will have high DDR and extra "detail". I know what real detail sounds like - a Heil AMT has it, and it doesn't ring.
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