Both Tang Bands from previous post, although fairly smooth in the mids, exhibit cone resonances and breakup at 10kHz in the case of 1364SA and 13kHz for 315E and these can be seen in the deep notches when off axis. This will ran that there will be quite a bit of ringing in the impulse response. Compared to the TG9FD, it is smooth as well as not exhibiting the deep notches off axis for a more uniform sound field. It seems that the Peerless patented pentacut NSRC cone structure really helps to prevent the principal eigenmodes of drum head vibration from showing up. This is seen consistently through the range of TG9, TC9, and ScanSpeak 10F which all utilize this technology. If you look at the underside of these drivers you will see that the cone is cut in a pentagon and bonded to the surround. It looks round from the top but the pentagon symmetry prevents symmetric plane of reflection modes from being the first dominant modes. This is why all three Vifa/SS drivers have a similar frequency responses despite large variations in material and/or motor designs. Given the data above, the TG9 at $22 is still the better value and better SQ from looking at the data alone.
The title drivers for this thread exhibit a smoother response than the 1364SA or 315E, but have a mild resonance peak at 15kHz - probably a lot more well tamed than earlier Tang Band designs. I am not a believer in phase plugs for small 3in drivers. I feel you lose the principal means of having a dome tweeter for highs and it cuts down on Sd for mids and low frequencies.
The title drivers for this thread exhibit a smoother response than the 1364SA or 315E, but have a mild resonance peak at 15kHz - probably a lot more well tamed than earlier Tang Band designs. I am not a believer in phase plugs for small 3in drivers. I feel you lose the principal means of having a dome tweeter for highs and it cuts down on Sd for mids and low frequencies.
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I don't think you can draw any solid conclusions from the datasheet. The new drivers seem to exhibit the same +10dB breakup in the top octave as all of the older ones do. Either way TB's datasheets aren't to be trusted imo, almost always their drivers measure significantly different to what is published in the datasheet.
Go have a look at the TG9FD10-08 datasheet too, the on-axis response really doesn't look any better than any of the TB drivers. The only way to know for sure how a driver is going to perform off axis is to actually measure it off axis.
The TC9 has more breakup than the TG9:
I agree with your points about reduction of SD and losing the 'dome' effect of the dust cap but having a dust cap brings some disadvantages too - usually related to the air trapped underneath the dust cap. On average, my measurements show lower distortion through the midrange (200Hz-1KHz) for drivers with phase plugs, maybe because they don't suffer from wind noise related to having to vent the air underneath the dust cap. Of course, my sample size is small and more things affect distortion than just the dome/plug.
Go have a look at the TG9FD10-08 datasheet too, the on-axis response really doesn't look any better than any of the TB drivers. The only way to know for sure how a driver is going to perform off axis is to actually measure it off axis.
The TC9 has more breakup than the TG9:
I agree with your points about reduction of SD and losing the 'dome' effect of the dust cap but having a dust cap brings some disadvantages too - usually related to the air trapped underneath the dust cap. On average, my measurements show lower distortion through the midrange (200Hz-1KHz) for drivers with phase plugs, maybe because they don't suffer from wind noise related to having to vent the air underneath the dust cap. Of course, my sample size is small and more things affect distortion than just the dome/plug.
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I don't think you can draw any solid conclusions from the datasheet. The new drivers seem to exhibit the same +10dB breakup in the top octave as all of the older ones do. Either way TB's datasheets aren't to be trusted imo, almost always their drivers measure significantly different to what is published in the datasheet.
Go have a look at the TG9FD10-08 datasheet too, the on-axis response really doesn't look any better than any of the TB drivers. The only way to know for sure how a driver is going to perform off axis is to actually measure it off axis.
The TC9 has more breakup than the TG9:
I agree with your points about reduction of SD and losing the 'dome' effect of the dust cap but having a dust cap brings some disadvantages too - usually related to the air trapped underneath the dust cap. On average, my measurements show lower distortion through the midrange (200Hz-1KHz) for drivers with phase plugs, maybe because they don't suffer from wind noise related to having to vent the air underneath the dust cap. Of course, my sample size is small and more things affect distortion than just the dome/plug.
The vifa TC/TG 9 is said to be some of the best bargains as far as 3" extended range drivers go, I have yet to try them but from what I have read and seen from measurements, they are truly impressive for the price. The vented pole piece should help a bit, the copper reduces motor distortions and the soft, low profile cone may result in more gentle cone segmentation/ breakup. The only part I am not too happy to see is the plastic basket (also found in Markaudio drivers), but apparently they're at least as good, if not better than stamped frames. I don't believe in tangband's graph anyway except when you can see a breakup somewhere, you know it's going to be a serious one
I have used dozens of the plastic basket TC9FD's and now TG9FD. Installed and removed from enclosures repeatedly for testing purposes and have not had any issue with the basket breaking or failing otherwise. The plastic appears to be tougher and more resilient type of polymer (I would guess polycarbonate or glass-filled nylon?) than the one used in the MA (A7.3, and A7P) which is harder and probably more brittle (I would guess it is ABS). My one complaint is that the TC9 comes with a foam gasket glued to front face of bezel. If not backside mounting then it needs to be removed.
Oh I've heard about the ugly sealing gasket too. Will there be scratches or residual glue seams after gasket removal though? And the gasket is on TC 9 but not TG9, right? Unfortunately it's hard to find a TG9 8 ohm version.
Good to know the frames are non-issues.
xrk971,
You have a lot of experience with either TC9FD's and now TG9FD and I understand you quite like it's freq. response and also it's sound quality. You know that the spl level of this model is fairly low by comparison to a 5in full ranger which usually sits around 89-90dB.
Do you see any problem if I use 2 units in parallel without any tweeter in between as MTM configuration? Will the frequency resp curve esp above 8-10khz be affected?
You have a lot of experience with either TC9FD's and now TG9FD and I understand you quite like it's freq. response and also it's sound quality. You know that the spl level of this model is fairly low by comparison to a 5in full ranger which usually sits around 89-90dB.
Do you see any problem if I use 2 units in parallel without any tweeter in between as MTM configuration? Will the frequency resp curve esp above 8-10khz be affected?
Yes, you can use two on top of each other in parallel. You will get 91dB at 2.83v sensitivity. It works very well - but has a bit of lobing in the vertical direction in the near field - but not a problem. More info here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/247598-nautaloss-ref-monitor.html
I have also put two TC9FD's together in the 0.53x Karlsonator and there is no lobing at all because drivers are behind a Karlson aperture acoustic lens. That speaker sounds very big and full with deep rich bass. More info here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds.html
Last question I don't want to hijack this thread, is the bit lobing(vertical direction) in the near field, what happen when you listen in far field, does the high response drop off a few dBs? sometime called high freq. combing. Is it serious for 2 drivers in parallel?
QTS for the new driver is the same as the TB W3-881, and I have built 3 sets of the TABAQ w/ the 881 Neo which sounded quite good for what they were.
Mac
*Maybe I'll be the guinea pig, and be the first to try the new TB Driver.
I had the same experience using W3-881 in my TABAQ, it sounded very nice without the BSC, so I never got around doing a BSC for them. A pitty one enclosure fell on its side and the magnet from that W3-881 detached. Been using VIFA TG9 since, but I might give this new TB a try as to use the VIFAs in another project.
Go for it! The new Tang Band will go lower than than the 55HZ advertised for this design, but the "$64 Question" is will it be distorted? Bjorn told me in an earlier post he would do a Sim for this new driver, but as yet, he has not posted with his findings. You may want to wait for his findings before you order your drivers. I am hoping that the original design will accommodate this new 3" driver and put the bass at say maybe, 40HZ, which would make it a "Small Bass Monster!"
Mac
Go for it! The new Tang Band will go lower than than the 55HZ advertised for this design, but the "$64 Question" is will it be distorted? Bjorn told me in an earlier post he would do a Sim for this new driver, but as yet, he has not posted with his findings. You may want to wait for his findings before you order your drivers. I am hoping that the original design will accommodate this new 3" driver and put the bass at say maybe, 40HZ, which would make it a "Small Bass Monster!"
Mac
Yep...Waiting for his findings...Worst case scenario it doesn't work well, and I use the new 3" TB for the project where I was going to use the VIFA, and the VIFA stay in the TABAQ. They are about the same price as MarkAudio CHR70.3, but they are different.
Bjorn indicated his designs were tolerant of the low Qts of the Tang Band series of drivers. You may very well be on to a good match of driver to design with the TABAQ Large. It would be interesting to see and hear about the impressions of the results of such a build. It just amazes me that a single driver in the right cabinet can produce music rivaling 2, 3, and 4 way speakers that cost big bucks! Just my personal opinion and thoughts?
Mac
Am currently interested in the W4-2142 or the W5-2143 for use as a mid. Those impedence burbles have me abit concerned. Am waiting on someone else to test as I would require 4, so a little pricey for a blind experiment.
Tis a shame PE doesn't test. Suppose its easier to sell through ambiguity than to show the flaws. Tho they do check drivers from time to time with the WT3... hmmm
Tis a shame PE doesn't test. Suppose its easier to sell through ambiguity than to show the flaws. Tho they do check drivers from time to time with the WT3... hmmm
Bjorn, were you able to take a look at the Tang Band W3-2141 3" in the Tabaq?
Thanks,
Mac
W3 2141 in TABAQ
Hi
To get the max out of this nice driver, you should modify the TABAQ design:
Please find the sim with this adjusted TABAQ.
The small bump in the bass will not show up in real life.
Have fun !
Greetings form Bjørn
Hi
To get the max out of this nice driver, you should modify the TABAQ design:
- Internal length of the line extended 3 inches (internal).
- Port length 5 inch.
- Driver 9 inch from closed end.
- Stuffing 80 gram in the upper 2/3.
Please find the sim with this adjusted TABAQ.
The small bump in the bass will not show up in real life.
Have fun !
Greetings form Bjørn
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Bjorn indicated his designs were tolerant of the low Qts of the Tang Band series of drivers. You may very well be on to a good match of driver to design with the TABAQ Large. It would be interesting to see and hear about the impressions of the results of such a build. It just amazes me that a single driver in the right cabinet can produce music rivaling 2, 3, and 4 way speakers that cost big bucks! Just my personal opinion and thoughts?
Mac
I am currently using a pair of TABAQ Large using the 1611SAF. It is quite impressive. Sounds more like a decent 8 inch in the bass department. I was going to put in a tweeter on the current TABAQ, but with this new one, I think I'm going to hold off on that.
I hope I can build it sometime soon. I've burned my money on other things so don't know when I can start purchasing these.
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