John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II

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Geez,
This is like the people who say we never went to the moon, how do you prove that? Of course I believe we did but so many think the whole thing was staged, what proof do you offer in that case?

The one proof that we have landed on the moon should be having hubble focus
on the areas where we have been on the moon and publish photos.

Forgive my ignorance, but it might be kinda nice to see. So where are
the pics of the moon landing sites from earth or orbital eyes in the sky?
How many men really know Neil Armstrong?

I"ve looked I can't figure it out either. So where are the pics showning the
moon and people on it from earth, or landings images. Wasn't Neil only
a qkuiet guy after he walked on the moon?
 
I am not sure if a really effective low noise current source is practical in this design, IF noise is to be minimum. Look at the simple equivalent circuit that I put up. Can you see that if everything is equal, then we will lose 3dB from the current source alone. Could be worse, much worse. A resistor should give better noise performance.
 

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depending on the whole diameter and plating thickness most PTH holes have more effective copper than the trace that joins them... plating thickness should be between 20-25microns (approx. 3/4 ounce copper)... I presume we are discussing via's here as they are usually the only holes that don't have pins in them.
Again I have not seen this problem in any electronics I have been part of for competently made to the correct specs PCBs and to the required quality, through holes causing distortion, it would be a very big problem on some designs I have worked on... and would be catastrophic for a long term project I am working on... plenty of analogue.....

250 mill trace width 2 oz copper 125 mill hole not a via. Not exactly the kind of layouts you seem to be doing.
 
I doubt the reduced distortion, but a current source would improve PSSR.

Power supply rejection ratio is often specified at line frequencies rather than the critical audio frequencies around 6000 Hz. In addition there are lots of other paths for power supply noise to couple to the output. So a clean power supply is a really good first step.

So magically high PSSR often has no benefit.
 
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I am not sure if a really effective low noise current source is practical in this design, IF noise is to be minimum. Look at the simple equivalent circuit that I put up. Can you see that if everything is equal, then we will lose 3dB from the current source alone. Could be worse, much worse. A resistor should give better noise performance.

Yes, especially if the ccs is used as a gain stage load application....... So, what is your next step in development?


-RNM
 
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Well in the days when it was all tape and lightboards you could call it 'art'.

When you step back and look at how PCB design software has improved since the rise of the PC you can how the lines have blurred between the design and the layout. Although I still know RF types who don't trust anyone else with critical layout. Mind you they also have strange habits and dont generally play well with others. Luckily we have imprisoned a lot of them at Roke Manor!

I have never considered it art such even when I was doing tape ups... Maybe that's why I have always been in demand as a PCB designer, because I consider it an engineering discipline, study all aspects of it and don't have an arty f.... attitude to layout.:)
I think part of the art is that the final output is often referred to as an artwork... That's just my boring view, but a PCB is just a physical representation of a circuit diagram.
 
chaps when u get a chance ... i havent seen this erik margan paper linked on the forum (although lots of discussion on his older papers on similar topic)

http://www-f9.ijs.si/~margan/Articles/Amp_Distortion_Dynamics.pdf

Quote from the final page:
... Because the open loop bandwidth of an ordinary amplifier is somewhere between 10 and 100 Hz, the reaction time is slow, and at high signal frequencies a large difference between the input and output signal
appears before the feedback loop is reestablished. Effectively this means that as the amplifier distorts, its bandwidth is reduced and its phase lag is increased, but once the signal amplitude falls below the quiscent threshold, the distortion is reduced considerably, and so is the phase lag.

What we have is actually a mechanism. Note that the amplitude of the switching phase modulation distorted signal follows the output signal amplitude, and the phase angle is practically constant (but within the first quarter of the first period, where the initial phase modulation occurs), until it suddenly vanishes.

How large is this pahse error? It is possible to calculate the phase angle from the arctangent of the imaginary to real component ratio, the real part being the output signal, and the imaginary part being the distorted signal in the bottom trace of . By observing the second period of the signal, where Fig.12 the phase relation is firmly established, we have about 0.1V in the distorted signal and about 4V in the output. The angle is then (180/pi)×arctan(0.1/4) = 1.5°. Not much, you will say. But bear in mind that
the human ear is insensitive to static phase shift, but very sensitive to quick phase changes.

{emphasis mine}

Note also that the amount of phase error is load impedance dependent, a dominantly capacitive load increases both the crossover distortion and the phase lag, a dominantly inductive load reduces both.

Also, the effect is increasing with signal frequency. With musical signals at moderate levels, this phase switching always occurs during the initial 10-50 ms or so at every start of a played note.

It may therefore be conjectured that this is the main cause for the often complained "stereo image instability" experienced during subjective evaluation, even if the of crossover distortion itself is unnoticeable."

Without getting into too much theory, I believe the above is true and why it almost always makes me prefer a wide bandwidth low GNFB amp to the traditional high gain, high GNFB designs. Of course, that's just one part of the whole, but I firmly believe it is a crucial part.

Such amplifiers seem to be subjectively faster, almost instaneous in situations where the music is dense so to speak, with a sound stage full of participants. There is an air of immediacy and vigour I rarely find in traditional designs. The penalty are poorer specs, greater THD measurements, but also usually better phase response. It simply usually sounds better (usually - not guaranteed).
 
> Can you see that if everything is equal, then we will lose 3dB from the current source alone.

But then we only need bandwidth for Q1 but not Q2.
Couldn't something be done to reduce noise of the CCS ?


Patrick

Exactly which type of CCS? Some time ago, we exchanged some words about them, and looking over my documentation I was quite surprised to find an outstanding choice of possible designs used today. Probably the most frequently used type in the industry is a zener diode preceeded and followed by resistors, possibly in parallel with a cap ranging in value from 0.1 to 47 uF meant to filter out the zener noise.

Some manufacturers of commercial amps, like Harman/Cardon, by default pay much attention to them, and use rather complex ciruits (e.g. PA 2400), built around BJTs and using 9 transistors. Obviously, they believe that the CCS is a very important matter deserving such uncommon attention.

Just as an idea, in his research, perhaps John could take a closer look at the common types of CCS in view of his requirements.

Some examples are shown below. Not a complete list, I need to update it.
 

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