Love the sound of a fullranger but I like Hard Rock!! What to do !?

[eljoantonyn]

Sounds like you need a full range driver that can pump put high SPL with low distortion. I think what you need is a FAST (Fullrange assisted subwoofer technology) - a two way with a low frequency XO at circa 300Hz. This way, you get the benefits of a full range for point source and phase coherent output in the 300Hz to 6kHz range where localization and imaging are important, and the woofers handle the large excursions needed while reducing inter modulation distortion on the full range because it doesn't have to move much.

Try a FAST with a PRV 5MR450NDY. It has 95dB sensitivity and can handle 225 watts rms. Has very low distortion. Use that with a woofer of your choice (match sensitivity) and cross over at about 300Hz. I would go active bi amp with a miniDSP.

I would characterize the 5MR450NDY as slightly bright and in your face signature. It has decent wide dispersion up to about 6kHz where the important imaging spatial cues are needed.

More info in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/259293-prv-5mr450-ndy-fast-applications.html

Thank for the reply.

FAST sounds like an excellent idea.

I have some work left to do and after that, I'm free to do some "research" on this subject.

I was going to suggest the FAST route. another approach is to use multiple drive units, possibly in an array. Depending how many you use, this will also up the dB/watt rating of the entire system.

FWIW, there are a lot of excellent, high power solid state amps around which use class A/B or class-D, so using class-A may be limiting yourself unnecessarily.

Or you could build a pair of real horn loudspeakers …

Multiple drivers...would it work?

I'm not an spl guy, it's just that I listen to music at a slightly higher volume to drown out the background noises.

I thought class a was the best in SQ!!

Horn?
Don't like them in an aesthetic sense.

 

[eljoantonyn]

Thanks guys for the response for my noob questions
But, unfortunately, I would be out for a bike ride with my work buddies and would be at a place without any cellphone signals.
I'll be replying to your posts in about two hrs.

 

[eljoantonyn]

Yep, FAST system, preferably with a Markaudio, Tangband or Jordan full range. Fostex are often a little too live sounding.

Contrary to popular belief, heavy rock often times does not IME sound good on very low distortion dynamic speakers -- with a few exceptions of course. Compression is your friend, and frankly so is some 2nd order distortion. That said, you don't want speakers that start to break up when cranked.

I find that indie rock is often better recorded than commercial stuff, and sounds better on clean systems. FWIW

I have heard a fostex driver (forgot its spec) in an FH3 at my friends place and I liked it to an extent.
What do you mean by "live sounding" ?

Currently, I'm listening to Green Day, Creed, Goo Goo Dolls, Audioslave, Collective Soul, Radiohead, Daughtry, Foo Fighters, Shinedown, 30 Seconds to Mars etc. But, I also have some pop, hip hop and electronic stuff like (Britney Spears, Katy Perry, Natalie Imbruglia, Alanis Morisette, Aarmin Van Buuren, Paul Van Dyk...).
Does that 2nd order distortion you mentioned harm it ?

 

[eljoantonyn]

+1 Greg B and Cango - speakers that are too revealing don't always yield the best enjoyment with heavy rock /metal/thrash genres...

Single FR units struggle to be dynamic enough in 70-200 Hz range, and rock can sound emaciated... a FAST system might be the ticket for you, but my experience with most sub-woofers is that they are better at providing low bass for <50 Hz material and effects, but not very good at slam or punch that rock music wants - maybe I had the wrong subs or poor integration... but I am guessing good woofers will do a better job.

Why is that ?

Yeah, I agree.

just my 2c of beginners experience with my frugal horn and heavy metal...

I use the EAD E100HD (their latest, made by scan speak) which share some dna with the jordan/eikona, yet not the same.

To my ears the sound is truly great, revealing. Classical music and "Jordi Savall-music" (don't know what it's called) is great - but my "old" heavy metal records (now digital files) did not sounded as I expected - what I call "flaws" in the production sound was VERY revealing... I guess I have to re-learn how they really sound.

since my rig is a part of a HT, I guess I use a FAUST (full range with a sub) but the sub I tend to have crossed low and at low volume, can be too much otherwise.

Thanks man.

The problem with me is though is the availability. And shipping stuff from outside can be a harrowing experience thanks to our customs department.

 

[CLS]

Listen as close as you can. It'd be loud.

 

[chrisb]

Careful to whom you sell yourself if making a Faustian bargain to get wider bandwidth, higher output levels when employing a FR driver.

Sorry, couldn't resist - surprised it didn't come up already

Cango - nice reference to the Jordi Savall - I was "gifted some files" of several of his recordings last summer - exquisite performances and recording engineering

 

[eljoantonyn]

i play heavy dub (with a deep and heavy bass) on moderate levels trough an Mark Audio Allpair 10M gen 3 in a ported box without problems, the only thing you need to keep in mind is let your speakers break in enough with soft music (in my case jazz and classic music) before you play that kind of heavy music and play your system only on 80% of the advertised power or lower. A full range line array (multiple full range speakers in one box) with maybe with helper woofers can be a solution if you need high volumes. You can crossover the woofers rather low as most full range go till 100hz or lower without any problem.

My ported box goes till the mid 30's. I was planning to add a subwoofer, but i don't think that is really needed in my case. It could help and i may do it later, but the dub sounds also good without, and better and deeper than most 'hi fi' system play i think.

It's true that flaws in the production are very clear, so you need to live with that. Just like low bitrate digital files sound like ****, and good vinyl records sound so much better than on my old mainstream speakers and low budget studio monitors.

Thats awesome !!

Can you share some info on your setup ?

Well,
I believe I can offer several solutions that might satisfy you but first:
1. How is your listening room set up i.e.
a. what are the dimensions,
b. where/how are your speakers set up in the room - away from / pushed in to the walls, do you have corners / speaker - speaker distance ?
c. how far away from you speakers do you sit
2. What is your budget and what kind of build complexity can you handle ?
3. Where, geographically, are you located - and where do you acquire drivers from?
4. What is your passive crossover design expertise, if any - and do you have any access to measurement tools ? (I personally prefer active w/ mini-dsp)

1.
a. Dimensions: 4.7 x 4 meters. One side of the room is open (2 meters, have a staircase opening there from below.)
b. Speakers are either side of my PC, 2 meters apart and 0.6 meters from the back wall.
b. I sit may be 0.5 meters from the speakers. BUT, most of the time, I would be walking or reading in the open area just outside the the music room.
2. Budget: 50,000 INR (~750 USD). I'm not that good in wood work and stuff. BUT, my friend Bibin3210 has agreed to help me out.
He is very experienced and is a respected DIY guy of my area.
He have a website too diyaudiocart.com
3. I'm from Kerala, India.
Bibin is an authorised dealer of Dynaudio and he has some Fostex and Peerless drivers with him too. He also have some Fountek stuff too.
BTW, he mentioned this driver from them, the FR135EX
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-fullrange/fountek-fr135ex-5-full-range/
Can it be of any use ?
4. I don't have experience in designing a crossover. I'm a Mechanical Engineer and most of the electronics stuff I comes across are just too... to for brain
As for measurement tools, I can buy it or rent it from Bibin.

 

[eljoantonyn]

Listen as close as you can. It'd be loud.

Yeah, but sometimes I would be reading a book outside or walking !

Careful to whom you sell yourself if making a Faustian bargain to get wider bandwidth, higher output levels when employing a FR driver.

Sorry, couldn't resist - surprised it didn't come up already

Cango - nice reference to the Jordi Savall - I was "gifted some files" of several of his recordings last summer - exquisite performances and recording engineering

Copy that !

 

[eljoantonyn]

A Classic!

Beta12LT! With a solid bass system (Rock!) and some help on top.

Enter Godzilla in 3, 2, 1, ...



PS Come to think of it, Pro 15s really suit Hard Rock (I love the sound of Tool, Floyd, Soundgarden, Porcupine Tree,, ... and Satriani on pro15s...)

and CompressionHorns on top with narrowing directivity matching wherever you cross the 12LT could ... well, Rock!

5k, ASD1001(?), PSD2002; wide horn
8k, APT150, shorter horn or circular APT80
10k, APT80 or super tweeter

(I have a decades old, cap/res only, 2nd order 10k Piezo Xover designed by Wayne Parham - Pi - to go with my dual piezo element mexiclone KSN1188! ... for my Beta12LT)



Oh yea, how loud are you listening to this ...

You meant the Beta12LT needs a tweeter ?

I don't play very loud, like in a Rock concert. But, sometimes, I do some jogging/walking outside and would turn the volume up to hear the music outside.

12LTA, if left to play bass will compress - needs a helper tweeter (easy) - Fane's 250 double whizzer cone speaker will rattle on-axis about an octave higher than 12LTA and not require a helper from that perspective. It should work well on an open baffle.

for what little its worth, the best I've heard 12LTA is in GregB's "Karlsonator12" whose plans are online as is a build on Facebook.

I'd like a little FAST too - I don't think the average 4" could play some of the percussion albums I like such as Dan Weiss's "Tintal" which is comprised of a western drumkit and Fender Strat playing traditional Indian raga normally carried by tabla and harmonium.

a 3-way front loaded horn system can be ok with "hard" rock - such as a cowbell Altec 511, short folded horn and horn tweeter.

maybe a short array for the fullrange part of a FAST to distribute heating and excursion effects - if a good satisfying speaker can be found - might have to add a tweeter with something cheap which will alter the spatial perception of the system and sometimes "disconnect" with high harmonics.

The Karlsonator12?
That has a huge driver !

I'm thinking an 8" driver would be the max size for me. If it won't work, I'm ok with an array type setup.

 

[planet10]

Fostex are often a little too live sounding.

We have used the FF85wk with good results. FF105wk should be a good candidate too.

dave

 

[sippy]

A Classic!

Beta12LT! With a solid bass system (Rock!) and some help on top.

Enter Godzilla in 3, 2, 1, ...

I beat him
Am another 'fan' of the 12lta.
Mine are in Planet10 'EmKens' - driver needs modding, dust cap removal (tames an utterly orrid shriek), phase plug and then there's the bits of felt stuck on the cone, basket damping, ever tacky scrappers glue, quoits, lay-lines and I even looked at a graph once....
I listen to lots of music and they do most of it quite well except for Dub and other 'deep' stuff at volume - VC heating / compression sets in but by the time this happens, I've gone 'deaf' and me neighbours start giving me 'dead eye' stares

I've not found a tweeter that sounds 'right' with them, but funnily I don't miss beyond the drivers upper reaches even if I swap cables and run a 2 way or go from 2 way > wide range.
For me, the 'shine' of 'full / wide range' is NOT having a cross-over clouding proceedings, I find it takes longer for me to dial into the drivers 'freedom' than it does for me to forget theres nothing beyond 7.5khz

 

[CLS]

Yeah, but sometimes I would be reading a book outside or walking !

Of course, those are good, too.

However, good music deserve your full concentration, right?

When you're paying more attention to other stuff, why would you need loud music (with the intimacy and coherence of a fullranger) at the same moment?

 

[zobsky]

Ok, in all my years in this hobby, I haven't listened to every driver. That said, I've heard and built most popular (and some obscure ) designs

Firstly, Single driver Back loaded horns ( unless large) are not the best for listening to rock music. What I like about single drivers is their coherence across the midrange (and treble to some extent). This range is about 200 to 6000 Hz. If you can cover this (or at least till 3000 KHz) , you can get away with using other drivers to help out in the bass and treble.

Secondly, there are, broadly speaking, at least two kinds of good sounding systems. One that is ruthlessly accurate and revealing - and another that is forgiving and makes a variety of music sound good. If you listen to a variety of rock music, consider the 2nd type of system.

Lastly, many single driver systems are mid to high efficiency., and by that account, dynamic sounding. I've build flugelhorns in the past and personally, while they are dynamic sounding, personally, I find them just "ok". What you really want is something that is dynamic and has some slam.

 

[eljoantonyn]

Hi,

Not really. Your suffering from the "if only" problem.
Wow, they'd be great "if only" they did this and this.

But they don't, FR's are always a compromise.

A FAST might cut the mustard but TBH take a look
at https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
Even at full bore the mid is barely breaking sweat,
and as such will be highly linear and detailed loud.

rgds, sreten.

Thanks man !

That Tarkus 3 way is very interesting.

I'd imagine 80Hz would be a good place to roll in 12lta - a separate powered subwoofer might make sense. I'm not sure of helper tweeter - look at 20 degrees off axis - just a cheap piezo whether measuring well or not really helps with detail

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

I like widebanders for what they do well, but in reality, this is not what they do well. Supporting one with dedicated bass drivers would be a way forward, although probably best done actively to make level matching easier, especially if you use a small FR unit as a mid-tweet. XO of 200Hz - 500Hz, with the latter arguably compromising the lower mids slightly (if done well) in favour of maximising dynamic range. The old way would be best: compression mid-tweet from 500Hz up with a couple of HE 15in woofers, but you don't find many like that any more. Alas.

What I'm thinking.....

Active cross over with 150 Hz sub-out, Full range transmission line with a super tweeter !

Sub woofer:
Driver-Peerless 10" sls
Enclosure-Closed
Amp- Dayton Audio 250W Plate amp

 

[zobsky]

Here are some general descriptions of systems that should address your requirements
1. Eminence beta 12lta with super tweeter in a largish bass reflex cabinet
2. I can't speak for the karlsonator 12. I've built a few classic karlsons in my time and I like them for midbass. They have a particular reverb character in the midrange that you may / may not like. If you want to go this route, try a small karlson first, but I don't recommend them for a beginner . OTOH, Karlsons have amazing off axis response
3. Your choice of FAST systems. The larger drivers tend to beam so don't automatically assume that larger drivers are better.
4. Build a 2 way line array with cheap 4" drivers and a single tweeter or a tweeter line . Using 4" drivers allows you to cross over higher than 5-6 KHz and use cheaper tweeters . Supplement the array with a high efficiency subwoofer. This approach will give you the additional benefits if a wide sweetspot and a huge wave front launch, just the type of stuff that makes rock special . Think - wall of sound. This is also killer for home theater
5. Not really a full range based system but an 8" econowave based system with a sub also gives you a wide sweet spot. Directivity is highly under rated, because most people don't understand it and hiding manufacturers can't market it

 

[sippy]

12lta don't do 'slam'....... small motor, weighty cone etc etc.

 

[NuClear235]

FF105WK bassreflex

I have today birthday and I get Fostex FF105WK bassreflex box kit. I will build it and writte about it here. I love metal music and hope it will work. Will see if I will need subwoofer. I have it as near field monitors to PC in office.
Kit Fostex FF105WK

 

[eljoantonyn]

We have used the FF85wk with good results. FF105wk should be a good candidate too.

dave

Doesn't the current Rock music records overwhelm it ?

I beat him
Am another 'fan' of the 12lta.
Mine are in Planet10 'EmKens' - driver needs modding, dust cap removal (tames an utterly orrid shriek), phase plug and then there's the bits of felt stuck on the cone, basket damping, ever tacky scrappers glue, quoits, lay-lines and I even looked at a graph once....
I listen to lots of music and they do most of it quite well except for Dub and other 'deep' stuff at volume - VC heating / compression sets in but by the time this happens, I've gone 'deaf' and me neighbours start giving me 'dead eye' stares

I've not found a tweeter that sounds 'right' with them, but funnily I don't miss beyond the drivers upper reaches even if I swap cables and run a 2 way or go from 2 way > wide range.
For me, the 'shine' of 'full / wide range' is NOT having a cross-over clouding proceedings, I find it takes longer for me to dial into the drivers 'freedom' than it does for me to forget theres nothing beyond 7.5khz

The more I think about a speaker design...the more confused I get

Of course, those are good, too.

However, good music deserve your full concentration, right?

When you're paying more attention to other stuff, why would you need loud music (with the intimacy and coherence of a fullranger) at the same moment?

Yes, good music deserves full concentration and I do listen to my collection everyday for like 1 hour.
BUT, when I'm outside, I don't want to hear my neighbour yelling at his kid or the neighbouring Aluminum vessel factory's fuel oil power genrators etc.
Also, what about an SPL war against a nearby orphanage's PA system ?

 

[freddi]

maybe there's an inexpensive fullrange which would work on a midrange horn Zobsky - that, a horn tweeter and a diy Klipsch Belle type woofer with "type A" (or AA) Klipsch style crossover would not be too shabby and should be good with AC/DC, Motorhead type stuff. A Belle woofer cabinet would only be 30"x24"x18" deep and not use much more than one 4'x8' sheet of plywood and one 15" woofer. Add a 2.5mH inductor typically for woofer, 12 or so uF with autoformer or larger cap without it as the cone midrange may not need much attenuation, cap plus coil for tweeter horn and it should rock. If I listened to those genre then I'd throw together such a system with stuff in my pile. Btw - the Karlson's won't artifact noticeably with some drivers - Fane's double whizzer 12" fullrange is good but its qts is high. It would make a nice open baffle system and does not need a helper tweeter.

I'll have to dig out a 250Hz tractrix and see how a CHN70 fares vs LE5

Sreten knows a lot so his suggestions should be excellent for a lower sensitivity route.

Happy Birthday NuClear235

 

[Godzilla]

Yeah, I like the 12lta.

It's so big it's like a planar speaker. But it needs help in the bass and treble which may not suit some. Did I mention it's big?

Every speaker I've heard sometimes sounds contested at volume. The OP may be enamored by the back horn sound?

Do all FAST systems employ a sealed full range driver?

Happy birthday NuClear!