Hello Everyone 
I was in the middle of a speaker listening marathon to select a good budget speaker for my Yamaha AS500 amp. I had listened JBL Studio 290, Klipsch RB61, Tannoy Mercuri V4i, Monitor Audio BR6, PSB T6 (and its newer version)...etc. I was about to pull the trigger on the Dali Zenzor 7 but then...
I got a call from my friend (Bibin3210, he's a member of diyaudio as well as hifivision) regarding his Frugal Horn fullrange speaker. He said its very good but I was kind of skeptical coz the driver was so tiny (3") and just a single one per box while my current Magnat Monitors have three 6.5" woofers and a tweeter (3 way).
BUT, I was just blown away by their sound !!
It was so amazing.
What I was most surprised about was its bass. It was surprisingly tight and well defined.
The only problem with them is Green Day and bands like them.
Most of their songs have a lot of instruments and stuff and when played a high volume, it sounds so "un natural" and full of distortions to me. I tried 30 Seconds Mars's Kings and Queens too....same issue there.
So, I'm wondering if there are any full range speaker designs out there which goes with "loud"ish rock music ?
BTW, here are some of my thoughts regarding speakers.
1. I play my Magnat Monitor speakers (92 db) at around 40% volume using the AS500 (85W @8ohm. ~110W @4ohm).
2. I l have a lot of "heavy" type of music.
3. Off axis response should be good
4. A flat frequency response would be great but TBH, I like a slightly bright, in your face kind of sound signature.
5. I might get a class A amp with low power output...so it would be great if has good sensitivity.
6. I'm not good in building stuff but thankfully, Bibin has agreed to help me out in this matter.
I was in the middle of a speaker listening marathon to select a good budget speaker for my Yamaha AS500 amp. I had listened JBL Studio 290, Klipsch RB61, Tannoy Mercuri V4i, Monitor Audio BR6, PSB T6 (and its newer version)...etc. I was about to pull the trigger on the Dali Zenzor 7 but then...
I got a call from my friend (Bibin3210, he's a member of diyaudio as well as hifivision) regarding his Frugal Horn fullrange speaker. He said its very good but I was kind of skeptical coz the driver was so tiny (3"
) and just a single one per box while my current Magnat Monitors have three 6.5" woofers and a tweeter (3 way).BUT, I was just blown away by their sound !!
It was so amazing.
What I was most surprised about was its bass. It was surprisingly tight and well defined.
The only problem with them is Green Day and bands like them.
Most of their songs have a lot of instruments and stuff and when played a high volume, it sounds so "un natural" and full of distortions to me. I tried 30 Seconds Mars's Kings and Queens too....same issue there.
So, I'm wondering if there are any full range speaker designs out there which goes with "loud"ish rock music ?
BTW, here are some of my thoughts regarding speakers.
1. I play my Magnat Monitor speakers (92 db) at around 40% volume using the AS500 (85W @8ohm. ~110W @4ohm).
2. I l have a lot of "heavy" type of music.
3. Off axis response should be good
4. A flat frequency response would be great but TBH, I like a slightly bright, in your face kind of sound signature.
5. I might get a class A amp with low power output...so it would be great if has good sensitivity.
6. I'm not good in building stuff but thankfully, Bibin has agreed to help me out in this matter.
Sounds like you need a full range driver that can pump put high SPL with low distortion. I think what you need is a FAST (Fullrange assisted subwoofer technology) - a two way with a low frequency XO at circa 300Hz. This way, you get the benefits of a full range for point source and phase coherent output in the 300Hz to 6kHz range where localization and imaging are important, and the woofers handle the large excursions needed while reducing inter modulation distortion on the full range because it doesn't have to move much.
Try a FAST with a PRV 5MR450NDY. It has 95dB sensitivity and can handle 225 watts rms. Has very low distortion. Use that with a woofer of your choice (match sensitivity) and cross over at about 300Hz. I would go active bi amp with a miniDSP.
I would characterize the 5MR450NDY as slightly bright and in your face signature. It has decent wide dispersion up to about 6kHz where the important imaging spatial cues are needed.
More info in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/259293-prv-5mr450-ndy-fast-applications.html
Try a FAST with a PRV 5MR450NDY. It has 95dB sensitivity and can handle 225 watts rms. Has very low distortion. Use that with a woofer of your choice (match sensitivity) and cross over at about 300Hz. I would go active bi amp with a miniDSP.
I would characterize the 5MR450NDY as slightly bright and in your face signature. It has decent wide dispersion up to about 6kHz where the important imaging spatial cues are needed.
More info in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/259293-prv-5mr450-ndy-fast-applications.html
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I was going to suggest the FAST route. another approach is to use multiple drive units, possibly in an array. Depending how many you use, this will also up the dB/watt rating of the entire system.
FWIW, there are a lot of excellent, high power solid state amps around which use class A/B or class-D, so using class-A may be limiting yourself unnecessarily.
Or you could build a pair of real horn loudspeakers …
FWIW, there are a lot of excellent, high power solid state amps around which use class A/B or class-D, so using class-A may be limiting yourself unnecessarily.
Or you could build a pair of real horn loudspeakers …
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Yep, FAST system, preferably with a Markaudio, Tangband or Jordan full range. Fostex are often a little too live sounding.
Contrary to popular belief, heavy rock often times does not IME sound good on very low distortion dynamic speakers -- with a few exceptions of course. Compression is your friend, and frankly so is some 2nd order distortion. That said, you don't want speakers that start to break up when cranked.
I find that indie rock is often better recorded than commercial stuff, and sounds better on clean systems. FWIW
Contrary to popular belief, heavy rock often times does not IME sound good on very low distortion dynamic speakers -- with a few exceptions of course. Compression is your friend, and frankly so is some 2nd order distortion. That said, you don't want speakers that start to break up when cranked.
I find that indie rock is often better recorded than commercial stuff, and sounds better on clean systems. FWIW
Check out Audio Nirvanna drivers at commonsenseaudio.com
Very high efficiency drivers from 3" to 15"
You won't have any problem kicking *** with their larger speakers.
Very high efficiency drivers from 3" to 15"
You won't have any problem kicking *** with their larger speakers.
just my 2c of beginners experience with my frugal horn and heavy metal...
I use the EAD E100HD (their latest, made by scan speak) which share some dna with the jordan/eikona, yet not the same.
To my ears the sound is truly great, revealing. Classical music and "Jordi Savall-music" (don't know what it's called) is great - but my "old" heavy metal records (now digital files) did not sounded as I expected - what I call "flaws" in the production sound was VERY revealing... I guess I have to re-learn how they really sound.
since my rig is a part of a HT, I guess I use a FAUST (full range with a sub) but the sub I tend to have crossed low and at low volume, can be too much otherwise.
I use the EAD E100HD (their latest, made by scan speak) which share some dna with the jordan/eikona, yet not the same.
To my ears the sound is truly great, revealing. Classical music and "Jordi Savall-music" (don't know what it's called) is great - but my "old" heavy metal records (now digital files) did not sounded as I expected - what I call "flaws" in the production sound was VERY revealing... I guess I have to re-learn how they really sound.
since my rig is a part of a HT, I guess I use a FAUST (full range with a sub) but the sub I tend to have crossed low and at low volume, can be too much otherwise.
+1 Greg B and Cango - speakers that are too revealing don't always yield the best enjoyment with heavy rock /metal/thrash genres...
Single FR units struggle to be dynamic enough in 70-200 Hz range, and rock can sound emaciated... a FAST system might be the ticket for you, but my experience with most sub-woofers is that they are better at providing low bass for <50 Hz material and effects, but not very good at slam or punch that rock music wants - maybe I had the wrong subs or poor integration... but I am guessing good woofers will do a better job.
Single FR units struggle to be dynamic enough in 70-200 Hz range, and rock can sound emaciated... a FAST system might be the ticket for you, but my experience with most sub-woofers is that they are better at providing low bass for <50 Hz material and effects, but not very good at slam or punch that rock music wants - maybe I had the wrong subs or poor integration... but I am guessing good woofers will do a better job.
i play heavy dub (with a deep and heavy bass) on moderate levels trough an Mark Audio Allpair 10M gen 3 in a ported box without problems, the only thing you need to keep in mind is let your speakers break in enough with soft music (in my case jazz and classic music) before you play that kind of heavy music and play your system only on 80% of the advertised power or lower. A full range line array (multiple full range speakers in one box) with maybe with helper woofers can be a solution if you need high volumes. You can crossover the woofers rather low as most full range go till 100hz or lower without any problem.
My ported box goes till the mid 30's. I was planning to add a subwoofer, but i don't think that is really needed in my case. It could help and i may do it later, but the dub sounds also good without, and better and deeper than most 'hi fi' system play i think.
It's true that flaws in the production are very clear, so you need to live with that. Just like low bitrate digital files sound like ****, and good vinyl records sound so much better than on my old mainstream speakers and low budget studio monitors.
My ported box goes till the mid 30's. I was planning to add a subwoofer, but i don't think that is really needed in my case. It could help and i may do it later, but the dub sounds also good without, and better and deeper than most 'hi fi' system play i think.
It's true that flaws in the production are very clear, so you need to live with that. Just like low bitrate digital files sound like ****, and good vinyl records sound so much better than on my old mainstream speakers and low budget studio monitors.
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Hello Everyone
I was in the middle of a speaker listening marathon to select a good budget speaker for my Yamaha AS500 amp. I had listened JBL Studio 290, Klipsch RB61, Tannoy Mercuri V4i, Monitor Audio BR6, PSB T6 (and its newer version)...etc. I was about to pull the trigger on the Dali Zenzor 7 but then...
I got a call from my friend (Bibin3210, he's a member of diyaudio as well as hifivision) regarding his Frugal Horn fullrange speaker. He said its very good but I was kind of skeptical coz the driver was so tiny (3"
BUT, I was just blown away by their sound !!
It was so amazing.
What I was most surprised about was its bass. It was surprisingly tight and well defined.
The only problem with them is Green Day and bands like them.
Most of their songs have a lot of instruments and stuff and when played a high volume, it sounds so "un natural" and full of distortions to me. I tried 30 Seconds Mars's Kings and Queens too....same issue there.
So, I'm wondering if there are any full range speaker designs out there which goes with "loud"ish rock music ?
BTW, here are some of my thoughts regarding speakers.
1. I play my Magnat Monitor speakers (92 db) at around 40% volume using the AS500 (85W @8ohm. ~110W @4ohm).
2. I l have a lot of "heavy" type of music.
3. Off axis response should be good
4. A flat frequency response would be great but TBH, I like a slightly bright, in your face kind of sound signature.
5. I might get a class A amp with low power output...so it would be great if has good sensitivity.
6. I'm not good in building stuff but thankfully, Bibin has agreed to help me out in this matter.
Well,
I believe I can offer several solutions that might satisfy you but first:
1. How is your listening room set up i.e.
a. what are the dimensions,
b. where/how are your speakers set up in the room - away from / pushed in to the walls, do you have corners / speaker - speaker distance ?
c. how far away from you speakers do you sit
2. What is your budget and what kind of build complexity can you handle ?
3. Where, geographically, are you located - and where do you acquire drivers from?
4. What is your passive crossover design expertise, if any - and do you have any access to measurement tools ? (I personally prefer active w/ mini-dsp)
A Classic!
Beta12LT! With a solid bass system (Rock!) and some help on top.
Enter Godzilla in 3, 2, 1, ...
PS Come to think of it, Pro 15s really suit Hard Rock (I love the sound of Tool, Floyd, Soundgarden, Porcupine Tree,, ... and Satriani on pro15s...)
and CompressionHorns on top with narrowing directivity matching wherever you cross the 12LT could ... well, Rock!
5k, ASD1001(?), PSD2002; wide horn
8k, APT150, shorter horn or circular APT80
10k, APT80 or super tweeter
(I have a decades old, cap/res only, 2nd order 10k Piezo Xover designed by Wayne Parham - Pi - to go with my dual piezo element mexiclone KSN1188! ... for my Beta12LT)
Oh yea, how loud are you listening to this ...
Beta12LT! With a solid bass system (Rock!) and some help on top.
Enter Godzilla in 3, 2, 1, ...
PS Come to think of it, Pro 15s really suit Hard Rock (I love the sound of Tool, Floyd, Soundgarden, Porcupine Tree,, ... and Satriani on pro15s...)
and CompressionHorns on top with narrowing directivity matching wherever you cross the 12LT could ... well, Rock!
5k, ASD1001(?), PSD2002; wide horn
8k, APT150, shorter horn or circular APT80
10k, APT80 or super tweeter
(I have a decades old, cap/res only, 2nd order 10k Piezo Xover designed by Wayne Parham - Pi - to go with my dual piezo element mexiclone KSN1188! ... for my Beta12LT)
Oh yea, how loud are you listening to this ...
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12LTA, if left to play bass will compress - needs a helper tweeter (easy) - Fane's 250 double whizzer cone speaker will rattle on-axis about an octave higher than 12LTA and not require a helper from that perspective. It should work well on an open baffle.
for what little its worth, the best I've heard 12LTA is in GregB's "Karlsonator12" whose plans are online as is a build on Facebook.
I'd like a little FAST too - I don't think the average 4" could play some of the percussion albums I like such as Dan Weiss's "Tintal" which is comprised of a western drumkit and Fender Strat playing traditional Indian raga normally carried by tabla and harmonium.
a 3-way front loaded horn system can be ok with "hard" rock - such as a cowbell Altec 511, short folded horn and horn tweeter.
maybe a short array for the fullrange part of a FAST to distribute heating and excursion effects - if a good satisfying speaker can be found - might have to add a tweeter with something cheap which will alter the spatial perception of the system and sometimes "disconnect" with high harmonics.
for what little its worth, the best I've heard 12LTA is in GregB's "Karlsonator12" whose plans are online as is a build on Facebook.
I'd like a little FAST too - I don't think the average 4" could play some of the percussion albums I like such as Dan Weiss's "Tintal" which is comprised of a western drumkit and Fender Strat playing traditional Indian raga normally carried by tabla and harmonium.
a 3-way front loaded horn system can be ok with "hard" rock - such as a cowbell Altec 511, short folded horn and horn tweeter.
maybe a short array for the fullrange part of a FAST to distribute heating and excursion effects - if a good satisfying speaker can be found - might have to add a tweeter with something cheap which will alter the spatial perception of the system and sometimes "disconnect" with high harmonics.
Hi,
Not really. Your suffering from the "if only" problem.
Wow, they'd be great "if only" they did this and this.
But they don't, FR's are always a compromise.
A FAST might cut the mustard but TBH take a look
at https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
Even at full bore the mid is barely breaking sweat,
and as such will be highly linear and detailed loud.
rgds, sreten.
I'd imagine 80Hz would be a good place to roll in 12lta - a separate powered subwoofer might make sense. I'm not sure of helper tweeter - look at 20 degrees off axis - just a cheap piezo whether measuring well or not really helps with detail
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I like widebanders for what they do well, but in reality, this is not what they do well. Supporting one with dedicated bass drivers would be a way forward, although probably best done actively to make level matching easier, especially if you use a small FR unit as a mid-tweet. XO of 200Hz - 500Hz, with the latter arguably compromising the lower mids slightly (if done well) in favour of maximising dynamic range. The old way would be best: compression mid-tweet from 500Hz up with a couple of HE 15in woofers, but you don't find many like that any more. Alas.
Frugal Horn fullrange speaker. He said its very good but I was kind of skeptical coz the driver was so tiny (3"
With Alpair 7.x? It is a nominal 4" driver -- so has a 3" cone.
Your nominal 6.5" has about a 4.5-5" cone
The way to increase bass, potential loudness levels, and rock with rock-n-roll is to do a FAST (as suggested already).
Like this one:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/269393-p10-hifi-alpair-7-3en-sdx7en-fast.html
dave
Here's yet another idea.
An array of full rangers, like the cheap Vifa TC9 will give you ample dynamics and pretty much distortion free since all the power is distributed along the multiple drivers.
Check out the thread of "Making the Two Towers" by wesayso. His arrays can go down to 20Hz, handle transients really well and is very tight overall.
I built a smaller version, at 16 drivers each, and it was still very good, although it needed a sub for the lower extension.
An array of full rangers, like the cheap Vifa TC9 will give you ample dynamics and pretty much distortion free since all the power is distributed along the multiple drivers.
Check out the thread of "Making the Two Towers" by wesayso. His arrays can go down to 20Hz, handle transients really well and is very tight overall.
I built a smaller version, at 16 drivers each, and it was still very good, although it needed a sub for the lower extension.
With arrays, more is so often better. Although, if your room is pretty small, then 6 drivers may work.
After building a test array of 9 drivers, and feeling the potential, I went on with 16 drivers per array (only because the supplier couldn't get me more drivers!).
16 drivers is a whole new world compared to 9. Has to do with room acoustics, HF cancelations when dealing with arrays (in this case, more drivers is better), etc.
I can only believe that 20 drivers (like Halair's columns) or 25 drivers (like wesayso's) sound just marvellous!
After building a test array of 9 drivers, and feeling the potential, I went on with 16 drivers per array (only because the supplier couldn't get me more drivers!).
16 drivers is a whole new world compared to 9. Has to do with room acoustics, HF cancelations when dealing with arrays (in this case, more drivers is better), etc.
I can only believe that 20 drivers (like Halair's columns) or 25 drivers (like wesayso's) sound just marvellous!
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