Anyone tested these 12" Celestion full rangers yet? They are quite new.
Coaxial/Twin Cone - K12H-200TC - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
I recently acquired them and have been doing some basic modding and giving them some playing hours. They are starting to sing very nicely current driven. They replaced modded Eminence 12LTAs. At this point of burn-in I can only say for sure that 1) K12H-200TCs gives more dynamic and punchier bass than 12LTA, 2) they handle higher SPLs better than 12LTA.
Manufacturer's (voltage driven) freq response plot:
Let the burn in continue...
Regards,
Legis
Coaxial/Twin Cone - K12H-200TC - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
I recently acquired them and have been doing some basic modding and giving them some playing hours. They are starting to sing very nicely current driven. They replaced modded Eminence 12LTAs. At this point of burn-in I can only say for sure that 1) K12H-200TCs gives more dynamic and punchier bass than 12LTA, 2) they handle higher SPLs better than 12LTA.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Manufacturer's (voltage driven) freq response plot:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Let the burn in continue...
Regards,
Legis
Some follow up...
It took about 3 month of daily listening, and little bit of mechanical massaging for the cones to get completely relaxed. All in all, this Celestion driver is very good in my opinion, better than my 12LTA's. Typical lively and big' old sound of the large FR with very well behaving cone(s).
It took about 3 month of daily listening, and little bit of mechanical massaging for the cones to get completely relaxed. All in all, this Celestion driver is very good in my opinion, better than my 12LTA's. Typical lively and big' old sound of the large FR with very well behaving cone(s).
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MCM Electronics looks like they sell it, backordered 32 days though: Celestion 12" Woofer Twin Cone 200W RMS | K12H-200TC (K12H200TC) | Celestion
+1
Thanks for the heads-up Legis
Just done a search and found them for £60
I know I've got a 'period of silence' coming up that might last a few months (people upstairs are moving) so I'm gonna learn the Enable Tap Test on my Lta's.....
I hope.......
Couple of side notes that I may add. Both the Celestion and the 12lta are modded almost the same way (which includes basket rear wave reflection absorption, basket damping with bitumen, removal of the dust cap, supporting the whizzer with foam sticks and some minor magnet structure diffraction reduction and vibration absorption). I have also "massaged" the cone's outer rim and the whizzer and softened/loosened the surrounds somewhat. I have not used cone treatment for either of the drivers, I like the paper cone's tonality as-is (except in the Cele the cone is not 100% paper, but paper-kevlar mix).
In this particular modding theme/setup, both the cones fully runned in (very important), the Celestion's cone behaves better, it screams less and is more natural because of that. 12lta has some ringing notes in the cone's break-up region, that are most apparent if the speaker is toed-in straight towards the listener. Otherwise the articulation and sense of speed and timing is quite identical between the drivers, as is the way they both draw the soundstage (big rather than than pin-point accurate). The build quality is also better in Cele, if that matters.
If the cones are compared 100% unmodded, the Celestion is even more better than 12lta, it is really good and balanced even as stock but gets better with some basic mods. Cele's big and wobbly dust cap is best to be removed in my opinion.
If some cone treatment/damping is added, the situation might change either way.
edit. Also by the way, DO NOT add anything (window sealant tape etc.) between the driver and the baffle. Lossy connection between the driver and the baffle messes up the the tightness and the tonality of the bass and muddies the micro-articulation. I learned that the hard way. Celestion comes completely without any sealant and is best to be coupled straight to the baffle without anything in between (as non-lossy/lossless as possible).
In this particular modding theme/setup, both the cones fully runned in (very important), the Celestion's cone behaves better, it screams less and is more natural because of that. 12lta has some ringing notes in the cone's break-up region, that are most apparent if the speaker is toed-in straight towards the listener. Otherwise the articulation and sense of speed and timing is quite identical between the drivers, as is the way they both draw the soundstage (big rather than than pin-point accurate). The build quality is also better in Cele, if that matters.
If the cones are compared 100% unmodded, the Celestion is even more better than 12lta, it is really good and balanced even as stock but gets better with some basic mods. Cele's big and wobbly dust cap is best to be removed in my opinion.
If some cone treatment/damping is added, the situation might change either way.
edit. Also by the way, DO NOT add anything (window sealant tape etc.) between the driver and the baffle. Lossy connection between the driver and the baffle messes up the the tightness and the tonality of the bass and muddies the micro-articulation. I learned that the hard way. Celestion comes completely without any sealant and is best to be coupled straight to the baffle without anything in between (as non-lossy/lossless as possible).
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I have stored the line arrays to be used again in the future as the listening space allows it.
The Celestion is without any XO. Basically they sound almost the same without the (slightly modded) Visaton super tweeters, naturally there is little less sparkle at top end. Celestions go to approx. 10khz. Also current drive strenghtens the HF output somewhat compared to voltage drive. With some material one does not even notice that the supertweeters are not there.
But as a whole super tweeters definitely put them to next level without any sacrifice in coherency. In general I usually like to keep the "critical area" (lets say at least ~500Hz - 7khz) crossoverless, basically try to cross over as low and/or as high as possible.
The Celestion is without any XO. Basically they sound almost the same without the (slightly modded) Visaton super tweeters, naturally there is little less sparkle at top end. Celestions go to approx. 10khz. Also current drive strenghtens the HF output somewhat compared to voltage drive. With some material one does not even notice that the supertweeters are not there.
But as a whole super tweeters definitely put them to next level without any sacrifice in coherency. In general I usually like to keep the "critical area" (lets say at least ~500Hz - 7khz) crossoverless, basically try to cross over as low and/or as high as possible.
In Celestion page it says:
Coaxial/Twin Cone - K12H-200TC - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
"Secondary cone terminated by pressure formed cloth dust cap for enhanced mid-band clarity"
Why do you think dust cap is better to be removed ? Are you against "enhanced mid-band clarity" ?
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In Celestion page it says:
Coaxial/Twin Cone - K12H-200TC - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers
"Secondary cone terminated by pressure formed cloth dust cap for enhanced mid-band clarity"
Why do you think dust cap is better to be removed ? Are you against "enhanced mid-band clarity" ?
I had the dust caps on at first for like 2 months or so. I began to suspect that the wobbly dust cap smeared lower midband and upper bass information (as well as smearig somewhat the HF that is radiates directly from the VC) of transients and when the driver was generally driven hard. The improvement was immediately noticeable when I removed the dust caps. However one should be careful not to get any particles in the magnetic gap.
This is good an example of situation when sometimes manufacturers make a "good" decicions engineering-wise that are however bad sound quality wise. Another good example of this is the Visaton TL-16H super tweeters that I'm using. Removing the ferrofluid from their magnetic gap increased sensitivity 2-3dB in the >7kHz band (even more below that), while also decreasing the 3rd harmonic allround, and removed the slight sibilance they exhibited (even though they still were one of the best normal tweeters I had heard). It comes without saying that transient response and tonality also got better.
Engineering-wise the ferrofluid was justified because it controlled the mechanical resonance and 2nd harmonic distortion (due to the metallic suspension) below 5kHz (where the driver should not be used anyway) and increased thermal capacity. With incresed sensitivity one does not need so much power anyway and 150w power rating for 100dB/w super tweeter was overkill-ish to beging with. Just my opinion...
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Can you share some measurements showing responses before and after dust cap removal, and the improvement achieved therein ?
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I'd say the heard difference is hardly visible in measurements. I really have to try hard to see it.
Here the FR of dust capped Celestion:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And here without the dust cap:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The measurements are not 1:1 (not even on level), but close enough
. For example now I don't have any rubber sealant between the driver's flange and the baffle, and that increases the baffle resonance at ~130Hz (I have made lossy "Harbeth" cabinet on purpose for midrange clarity, and tonefull bass). Also the measurement difference might differ a bit, the "with dust cap" seems to be measured slightly closer since its allround smoother.Removing the dust cap seems to at least distribute the whizzers resonance a bit more, as where it contained also high-ish Q resonance at 6khz with the dust cap on. Also some null begings to form right before the whizzers resonance. Maybe due to phase difference from the whizzer and the direct radiation from the VC? (which is now unattenuated without dust cap)
However HF behaviour was not so noticeable difference to my ears, even though something can be measured. I noticed slightly more HF, which was slightly better in quality, but nothing more in that regard.
edit. Remember the current drive, hence the slightly rising (front/0 deg.) response compared to voltage drive.
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I noticed the Cele only has 4 mounting points. Do you think adding additional screw points--like 8 total in the case of the LTA--would help with baffle coupling?
How does the Cele baffle coupling compare to the LTA with twice as many mounting points?
Sorry for all the questions
If the Cele truly has more potential than an LTA then I'm intrigued.- Status
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