yes thats the wrong way
magnetic core materials are nonlinear and variable enough that the Lm will vary between the 2 xfmrs, then the unequal AC impedance will not divide the primary V equally - air gapped cores could work to a degree - but with mains strip wound toroids you would be playing roulette
you get the same function if you parallel the "inner" windings of each pair and then their V coupling enforces the primary V division
magnetic core materials are nonlinear and variable enough that the Lm will vary between the 2 xfmrs, then the unequal AC impedance will not divide the primary V equally - air gapped cores could work to a degree - but with mains strip wound toroids you would be playing roulette
you get the same function if you parallel the "inner" windings of each pair and then their V coupling enforces the primary V division
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Wayne, talking about distortion, it is remarkable to me that heavily distorted sounds, think Hendrix et al., require a very good set-up with little distortion to sound bearable. The same goes for difficult recordings with a lot of purposely distorted sound such as 'It's a beautiful day'.
In order for the right distortion to fall in place, the set-up can't add any of it's own. Which is not what I would expect, so it's a riddle.
In order for the right distortion to fall in place, the set-up can't add any of it's own. Which is not what I would expect, so it's a riddle.
That is correct, distortion is always part of the equation, the great audio grail is the search in knowing which to eliminate...
The same with BB King recordings or any unnatural electric instrument, they have to be played at what is a "correct" level to sound real. The distortion is part of our real world experience and of course our playback experience , Playback SPL is from our direct reference of these different sounds and their specific distortion, so we turn up for Hendrix , turn down for Symphony.
Symphony music requires dynamics, with plenty micro/macro details, the music grows to significantly loud levels, yet it's never loud, always soft, Yet powerful , unlike Hendrix, , requiring a much higher specific Din, with constant power, small is not required , micro details , not as important as macro in order for it to sound "real " our reference tells us loud , the guitar has to bite , pleasantly and acceptable, no explanation is required, you know it when you hear it ..
Those who play hendrix soft do so because of their system limitations, those who play Symphony music loud is suffering the same, size here is very important, their system is usually turned up unnaturally loud to compensate for the lack of a real size image and space.
This is why Audio is divided into so many camps, the journey continues ....
The same with BB King recordings or any unnatural electric instrument, they have to be played at what is a "correct" level to sound real. The distortion is part of our real world experience and of course our playback experience , Playback SPL is from our direct reference of these different sounds and their specific distortion, so we turn up for Hendrix , turn down for Symphony.
Symphony music requires dynamics, with plenty micro/macro details, the music grows to significantly loud levels, yet it's never loud, always soft, Yet powerful , unlike Hendrix, , requiring a much higher specific Din, with constant power, small is not required , micro details , not as important as macro in order for it to sound "real " our reference tells us loud , the guitar has to bite , pleasantly and acceptable, no explanation is required, you know it when you hear it ..
Those who play hendrix soft do so because of their system limitations, those who play Symphony music loud is suffering the same, size here is very important, their system is usually turned up unnaturally loud to compensate for the lack of a real size image and space.
This is why Audio is divided into so many camps, the journey continues ....
ABX TESTING ..........
ABX Double Blind Comparator: Bibliography
Why Amplifiers Sound the Same
http://www.stereophile.com/content/blind-leading-deaf-letter-why-amplifiers-sound-same
Amplifier Listening Comparison
Here is a test conducted at the 2006 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and written up in the February 2007 issue of audioXpress magazine.
“Few have ever been able to participate in a real-time, level matched comparison of two power amps driving the same speaker system in the identical acoustic environment. The listening comparison involved a 35W per channel vacuum tube amp and a very well-built solid-state Denon amplifier rated at over 200W per channel.
The vacuum tube amp was one of “classic” late sixties type design that was recently gutted and updated. Each channel employs a pair of KT-88s in a classic AB pentode arrangement with fixed bias. The amplifier employs a modest degree of negative feedback typical of amplifiers of the time, and achieves a damping factor of about 20.
This was an interactive workshop. One participant held a remote switch and could select either the vacuum tube or the solid-state amplifier. A green LED visible to all participants illuminated when one of the amplifiers was selected. The identity of that amp was not revealed until after the show. A variety of music could be selected for the listening comparison.
Some people came away from this presentation amazed at how hard it is to hear variances in obviously different components, while others thought they could perceive subtle audible differences. Attendees were informally polled at the end of each presentation and the results were tabulated. There were no “night and day” results. Indeed, for most attendees the differences were difficult to hear. Moreover, those who perceived a difference were just as often wrong in selecting which amplifier they thought was the tube amp. This shocked all of us.”
http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm
ABX Double Blind Comparator: Bibliography
Why Amplifiers Sound the Same
http://www.stereophile.com/content/blind-leading-deaf-letter-why-amplifiers-sound-same
Amplifier Listening Comparison
Here is a test conducted at the 2006 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest and written up in the February 2007 issue of audioXpress magazine.
“Few have ever been able to participate in a real-time, level matched comparison of two power amps driving the same speaker system in the identical acoustic environment. The listening comparison involved a 35W per channel vacuum tube amp and a very well-built solid-state Denon amplifier rated at over 200W per channel.
The vacuum tube amp was one of “classic” late sixties type design that was recently gutted and updated. Each channel employs a pair of KT-88s in a classic AB pentode arrangement with fixed bias. The amplifier employs a modest degree of negative feedback typical of amplifiers of the time, and achieves a damping factor of about 20.
This was an interactive workshop. One participant held a remote switch and could select either the vacuum tube or the solid-state amplifier. A green LED visible to all participants illuminated when one of the amplifiers was selected. The identity of that amp was not revealed until after the show. A variety of music could be selected for the listening comparison.
Some people came away from this presentation amazed at how hard it is to hear variances in obviously different components, while others thought they could perceive subtle audible differences. Attendees were informally polled at the end of each presentation and the results were tabulated. There were no “night and day” results. Indeed, for most attendees the differences were difficult to hear. Moreover, those who perceived a difference were just as often wrong in selecting which amplifier they thought was the tube amp. This shocked all of us.”
http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm
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This test demo was done by our own Bob Cordell with a friend of his.
A further development of that tube amp was published in Linear Audio (and I have one in my system). No tube sound. No sound at all. Except the music you put in
Jan
I suppose everything is fine as long you enjoy it.
It depend what the goal is at reproduction of recorded sound. What if sound wasn't right when it was recorded, what if the sound engineer had different taste or was preasured by time so he botched it. Often this is the case.
If the idea is to limit reproduction to what was there during recording and after studio work I think objectivity is achievаble but it will hardly be percieved as the best sound.
If pleasure is the goal, well it's difficult to say what's right. Some enjoy enhanced midbass, some clear highs, some over-driven tube amps probably someone out there enjoys the sound of exploding bomb because of effect of intense shock waves on human body. Why not Tchaikovsky quite effectively used cannon fire.
It's all madness if we have to consider that most of the musicians won't play the music right the way composer wanted. So much is lost really.
P.S. Frank Zappa was perfectionist so on Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch he included notes:
"This album is engineered to sound correct on JBL 4311 speakers or an equivalent. Best results will be achieved if you set your pre-amp controls to the flat position with the loudness control in the off position. Before adding any treble or bass to the sound of the album, it would be advisable to check it this way first. - F.Z.".
It depend what the goal is at reproduction of recorded sound. What if sound wasn't right when it was recorded, what if the sound engineer had different taste or was preasured by time so he botched it. Often this is the case.
If the idea is to limit reproduction to what was there during recording and after studio work I think objectivity is achievаble but it will hardly be percieved as the best sound.
If pleasure is the goal, well it's difficult to say what's right. Some enjoy enhanced midbass, some clear highs, some over-driven tube amps probably someone out there enjoys the sound of exploding bomb
because of effect of intense shock waves on human body. Why not Tchaikovsky quite effectively used cannon fire.It's all madness if we have to consider that most of the musicians won't play the music right the way composer wanted. So much is lost really.
P.S. Frank Zappa was perfectionist so on Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch he included notes:
"This album is engineered to sound correct on JBL 4311 speakers or an equivalent. Best results will be achieved if you set your pre-amp controls to the flat position with the loudness control in the off position. Before adding any treble or bass to the sound of the album, it would be advisable to check it this way first. - F.Z.".
... But of course it's not a riddle - the distortion in the recording has to be perfectly reproduced, that's the whole point of the exercise! Hendrix's guitar normally sounds abysmal on a typical system, a miserable wimp of a thing - not worth listening to. Only when the playback is working to a fine standard does the sound snap together - and you can say, yes, that's a Marshall amp!!
Incorrect. When a system is truly working correctly then the replay can be at any level, and the intensity, or "softness", or "grittiness", of the performance still comes through, pushes the subjective buttons in the same manner. I've experienced this many times - playback at maximum, clean volume, and then turn down the volume ... down and down and down it goes, until on the next click it will disappear - at that bottom of the scale I'm still hearing that same music event, I'm just much further away from it - if the performance was ferociously intense, then right at that next to inaudibility sound level I can still hear that passion and bite in the music ...
Been there, done that ... plenty of room to try various things. Check FELICIA - A DIY Balanced Power Conditioner and the threads there that go into minute detail about variations ...
You still don't get it, a.wayne - I "got" it 30 years ago, and that's been my reference ever since - dabbling with low powered gear is my exploring of what's relevant to achieving the right conditions for proper playback - and the only lacking of the lowly priced stuff is typically bass, and absolute headroom.
If you want a reference, it's playing a recording of Hendrix, and for a Marshall amp guitarist at the other end of the house to swear that it has to be a real player and amp in action. And that can only happen if the "micro details" of the playing, and recording come through totally cleanly - the low level information is always essential, no matter what the recording is of ...
Music playback is a continuum in terms of the quality, the only variable is the maximum SPL levels achievable, say at a certain distance from the speakers.
Apples and oranges Frank, but you tend to do that , you do realize Spl has nothing to do with size.
Listening to studio recordings is not my reference , its a poor reference as outlined by vacuphile earlier. I have my own recordings , i also hear live unamplfied music almost daily. I try to spend 1hr, once a month at symphony rehersal keeping my reference fresh.
I do get it, now stop trying to tell everyone how to set a landspeed record while driving a micro ...
Listening to studio recordings is not my reference , its a poor reference as outlined by vacuphile earlier. I have my own recordings , i also hear live unamplfied music almost daily. I try to spend 1hr, once a month at symphony rehersal keeping my reference fresh.
I do get it, now stop trying to tell everyone how to set a landspeed record while driving a micro ...
You still keep confusing quantity for quality - try a little mental exercise, just for a sec: you have Megamonster brand power amp driving humungous speakers, shattering window panes left, right and centre - just for a moment, consider dropping the gain to where the amplifier is never peaking beyond, say, 10W drive to the speakers, which happen to be 90dB sensitivity, and also kill the subwoofer - if the system is half competent doing the latter should not destroy the perceived quality, . Now, mute Big Boy, and flick on a well sorted out chip amp, driving, yes, PC speakers in the same room running at high gain - adjust gains to get good SPL match if necessary.
My premise is that those two systems should sound indentical if both are properly sorted out; you could flick from one to another, back and forth, and be hard pressed to pick a change.
If you disgree with me, explain why I'm 'wrong' ...
. Now, mute Big Boy, and flick on a well sorted out chip amp, driving, yes, PC speakers in the same room running at high gain - adjust gains to get good SPL match if necessary. My premise is that those two systems should sound indentical if both are properly sorted out; you could flick from one to another, back and forth, and be hard pressed to pick a change.
If you disgree with me, explain why I'm 'wrong' ...
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