Here are some real measurements of pro machines in active service: Response Curves of Analog Recorders None make it to 20 Hz and most fall apart before 30 Hz. The 30 IPS curves show the compromise from the high speed. His comments on the effects of the low frequency response are telling.
Vinyl
I saw this show Vinyl: The Sound and Culture of Records | Oakland Museum of California at the Oakland Museum today. It really highlights the core fact that vinyl (or LP as we once knew it to be) was and is about a social experience, not about audio. It was fascinating to see the young people (few over 30) really enjoying playing records, looking at jackets and sharing the experience. The picture below sums up the popular culture view of vinyl.
They were also running a piece of this film in a loop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziMw7uh9VNo Given its age (1958) not much has changed about people, audio, hi-fi and "audiophiles". Audiophiles were as much nerds in the 1950's as they are today. Only smoking pipes has passed.
I saw this show Vinyl: The Sound and Culture of Records | Oakland Museum of California at the Oakland Museum today. It really highlights the core fact that vinyl (or LP as we once knew it to be) was and is about a social experience, not about audio. It was fascinating to see the young people (few over 30) really enjoying playing records, looking at jackets and sharing the experience. The picture below sums up the popular culture view of vinyl.
They were also running a piece of this film in a loop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziMw7uh9VNo Given its age (1958) not much has changed about people, audio, hi-fi and "audiophiles". Audiophiles were as much nerds in the 1950's as they are today. Only smoking pipes has passed.
Attachments
Did some informal but single-blind tests on the audible difference between CD and SACD last week with a couple of friends.
We are thrying to develop a test regime that we can run fully controlled with a large group of participants.
One of us purchased an Earthworks mike with a bandwidth of 45kHz+, and recorded sounds from various high-frequency instruments like triangles and the like.
We verified that all recordings had up to 50kHz content. Earlier we had been using SACDs but found that many SACDs have no content above 16 or 18kHz.
We replayed the recorded fragments in pairs, the original and a copy limited to the CD bandwidth of 20kHz.
I was pretty sure I heard a difference and called the correct sequence several times during the trial runs.
Then we went to single blind and I scored 5 out of 10...
My buddies did not much better, like 6 out of 10.
Another humbling experience.
jan
We are thrying to develop a test regime that we can run fully controlled with a large group of participants.
One of us purchased an Earthworks mike with a bandwidth of 45kHz+, and recorded sounds from various high-frequency instruments like triangles and the like.
We verified that all recordings had up to 50kHz content. Earlier we had been using SACDs but found that many SACDs have no content above 16 or 18kHz.
We replayed the recorded fragments in pairs, the original and a copy limited to the CD bandwidth of 20kHz.
I was pretty sure I heard a difference and called the correct sequence several times during the trial runs.
Then we went to single blind and I scored 5 out of 10...
My buddies did not much better, like 6 out of 10.
Another humbling experience.
jan
A simple thing to say . If you can't get the Stones or Beatles to sound right fix your system . Linn called this timing . There is a downside . Get the timing right and the stereo image collapses . Linn tried to get me to convert to their way of thinking by lending me a top system . It was the weirdest sounding thing ever . It had one quality I never encountered before . I knew instantly if I was going to like a recording .
It was head and the heart . Heart liked it , head didn't . Head won the day . How head won is I said " never heard it like that in real life " .
What I try to do is keep the ability to play rhythm driven music . Take two examples . Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry . Buddy Holly is a master class in recording , Chuck Berry almost a faded photo . Berry is for all of that a reference recording of mine .
BTW . The CD verses anything else . The sound of different CD players with the same DAC is fascinating , it isn't subtle . If you tell me they all sound the same I give up . I don't want some justification about that . It's true and that's all there is to know . Like LP the seemingly easy , isn't . With the best of intentions the CD process is fragile . I guess the analogy is a high speed Hovercraft in Formula 1 .
As I said before AB testing is not very good as audio memory takes over . If you play two identical things at identical volume the second sounds brighter and more open . This is because the brain knows some of the music by then . It refocuses on the detail . This is true and no one says it . I used to do this to make people cautious , I gave up because it was like destructing a religion .
One thing I often noticed in AB tests is none of the systems sound good .
My system is like the dissecting table . I can not refer you to what it is because I built most of it . Like the Linn system it isn't a mainstream sound . It is analytical in the extreme and bright as is possible whilst having some pretense at neutrality . The surprise is I can play 78's on it . These are transformed . Tom Jones the other day was laughable due to recording technique , like a flip card cartoon . For all of that it was brilliant . Somehow I am getting timing and detail . To go back to the 78's . I am playing as I type a Nov 1926 recording . The Williams Sisters " Sam the old accordion man " . This must be a later acoustic recording . Each sisters moves to make a musical effect , very modern girls who would love life today is my guess . You can just tell , they are self assured and cheeky . The piano is nicely placed just behind them . You would swear a mixing desk is being used . What I clearly hear is space around each singer and head turning as they share their work .
It was head and the heart . Heart liked it , head didn't . Head won the day . How head won is I said " never heard it like that in real life " .
What I try to do is keep the ability to play rhythm driven music . Take two examples . Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry . Buddy Holly is a master class in recording , Chuck Berry almost a faded photo . Berry is for all of that a reference recording of mine .
BTW . The CD verses anything else . The sound of different CD players with the same DAC is fascinating , it isn't subtle . If you tell me they all sound the same I give up . I don't want some justification about that . It's true and that's all there is to know . Like LP the seemingly easy , isn't . With the best of intentions the CD process is fragile . I guess the analogy is a high speed Hovercraft in Formula 1 .
As I said before AB testing is not very good as audio memory takes over . If you play two identical things at identical volume the second sounds brighter and more open . This is because the brain knows some of the music by then . It refocuses on the detail . This is true and no one says it . I used to do this to make people cautious , I gave up because it was like destructing a religion .
One thing I often noticed in AB tests is none of the systems sound good .
My system is like the dissecting table . I can not refer you to what it is because I built most of it . Like the Linn system it isn't a mainstream sound . It is analytical in the extreme and bright as is possible whilst having some pretense at neutrality . The surprise is I can play 78's on it . These are transformed . Tom Jones the other day was laughable due to recording technique , like a flip card cartoon . For all of that it was brilliant . Somehow I am getting timing and detail . To go back to the 78's . I am playing as I type a Nov 1926 recording . The Williams Sisters " Sam the old accordion man " . This must be a later acoustic recording . Each sisters moves to make a musical effect , very modern girls who would love life today is my guess . You can just tell , they are self assured and cheeky . The piano is nicely placed just behind them . You would swear a mixing desk is being used . What I clearly hear is space around each singer and head turning as they share their work .
Nicely stated. I've had this experience with AB playing, the quality of the better version 'takes over' the lesser, the mind fills in the gaps, and makes them sound more and more alike - it was a dead end as a way of establising the "truth", it only makes you aware of how clever the brain is in dynamically compensating ...
I think it was Bach who visited the Vatican where he memorized the music of Palestrina ? It was music sacred to the Vatican . Now that is an audio memory . He walked ( and returned ) 400 kM to meet Buxtehude when he should have been at school .
It was found that 97 % of us have perfect relative pitch ( Stanley Kelly 1948 ) . This is the lower grade version of perfect pitch . It is no mystery , it is how we learn a language . Analysts found it is clicks we listen to . This listening is established in the early days of our life . This is why deaf people often do not have the high frequency sounds when speaking . Leading edge transients . Trailing edge I suspect gives beauty .
Sometimes records are played in reverse to transcribe them . Turning the trailing edge into the leading one can make it easier .
It was found that 97 % of us have perfect relative pitch ( Stanley Kelly 1948 ) . This is the lower grade version of perfect pitch . It is no mystery , it is how we learn a language . Analysts found it is clicks we listen to . This listening is established in the early days of our life . This is why deaf people often do not have the high frequency sounds when speaking . Leading edge transients . Trailing edge I suspect gives beauty .
Sometimes records are played in reverse to transcribe them . Turning the trailing edge into the leading one can make it easier .
Maybe not.
What is the throughput response of the amp/preamp/cables, and the HF response of the speakers.
Could these be the limiting factor ?.
Dan.
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In an earlier test we used an FM-multiplex filter, modified, to blind test against an original and a filtered copy (15kHz lp, very steep, with 100's of degrees of phaseshift).
On that occasion most of us could reliably identify the two versions but all preferred the filtered version. Go figure.
Jan
I think it's the phase shift at play. I believe, right or wrong, that our hearing is rather sensitive to it, much more so than is generally believed.
I have heard similar on TV sound tracks.
The sound monitor in the studio presumably did not allow the audio staff to hear the truck outside ticking over in that typical large diesel engine "hunting".
Or the car door slamming just off screen that suddenly makes me look to the side to see what happened.
The sound monitor in the studio presumably did not allow the audio staff to hear the truck outside ticking over in that typical large diesel engine "hunting".
Or the car door slamming just off screen that suddenly makes me look to the side to see what happened.
Hi Jan,
We discovered this with SACD in the 90's , i think the only SACD CD's at the time that was subjectively better than standard CD's were the ones were the recordings were better ...
Do you think if 24 bit instead of 16 it would have made a difference ..?
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Consistent with what kgrlee found in controlled testing too. I suggest you got lower IMD from decreased OOB content and preferred that.
Yes it will, very much so , thats why when doing subjective evals, we like to try any item under scrutiny in at least 3 different systems and see what the consensus is.
We gave up on SACD over a decade ago...
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