Well there is always a first time for everything ....
The 28Bsst2 supposed to be the one to change my mind , well so i was told , I 'm sorry , there are not on my list and i know of no personal friends with one , my last foray with past Brystons they were not my cup of tea ...
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You'll be waiting a long time, don't hold ya breath as I'm not planning on sending you a sample
Ok , then It doesnt exit and this is just another wet dream to beat dCs ..
Things have been happening back at Bryston HQ - somewhere, the penny dropped as to what really mattered, and some very smart implementation improvements have been made. I had read in a few places of the change in attitude and thinking, before I went to the audio show, so when I walked into the demo room and heard good sound I was keen to kick the tyres,
.In essence, driving big Dynaudios, it was the perfect PA system - the intensity and drive was there, but 100% clean sound at all times ...
I think that as in all things audio, even the definition of "high end" is as subjective as everything else.
To me, High End should be the part of the idnustry where mucn innovation and hopefully some breakthroughs should happen first, and then be filtered downwards over time. Just like Formula 1 with autos.
In principle, I do not object to high prices because I understand and accept that is one does a lot of reserach, development, hand selection of parts, uses stringent quality control for input and output, this will naturally cost more than any mass produced series of whatever.
But the current practice of creating artwork cases, demonstrating what modern CNC machines can do in sculpturing, with mundane electronics inside, does make me object.
I also object to insanely expensive gear with extremely simple electronics inside, operating on the premise that it's all in the idea - I agree the idea is crucial, but please do not charge say $200 worth of electrnics $20k.
But that's just me.
It seems to me that in all this talk of power amps the question of source, i.e. whatever acts as a preamp, is a bit lost. The ver best of power amps can fail to excite simply because the match with the preamp falls short.
For example, if I use my Marantz 170DC power amp with Marantz's own 3250B premp, I get a cal, cool sound, very well voiced but lacking some excitement. When the preamp is changed to H/K Citation Twenty One preamp, the sound stays clean and pleasant, but there is more detail in it. It's pairing it with the Luxman C-03 preamp which produces the best overall results, with much fine detail and some drama, where available.
This is just an example, but I'm sure it's not too different with other components, perhaps in a different order.
But it does show that it's not necessarily the same make devices which fit in best, it does take time to experiement, yet the reward may end up being rather significant.
For example, if I use my Marantz 170DC power amp with Marantz's own 3250B premp, I get a cal, cool sound, very well voiced but lacking some excitement. When the preamp is changed to H/K Citation Twenty One preamp, the sound stays clean and pleasant, but there is more detail in it. It's pairing it with the Luxman C-03 preamp which produces the best overall results, with much fine detail and some drama, where available.
This is just an example, but I'm sure it's not too different with other components, perhaps in a different order.
But it does show that it's not necessarily the same make devices which fit in best, it does take time to experiement, yet the reward may end up being rather significant.
Well, for me it is that which extracts the maximum that a recording is capable of, hiding nothing, but not highlighting any negative aspects of the recording. It should be capable of engendering a satisfying experiencing of recorded musical events, 'real' or synthesized, at any reasonable volume - and how it does this, and how much it costs, is irrelevant, so long as it remains true to what is encoded on the recording ...
For me the preamp is the 'lost' component - I have never used one - well, 40 years ago I did,
- and I don't regret it one second. To me it is the addition of a major complication, with myriads of potential weaknesses - the simplest, shortest path has worked well over the years, so it's a non-starter for me ...For me the preamp is the 'lost' component - I have never used one - well, 40 years ago I did,
That's fine if you use only one sound source. But if you use several, in my case the CD player, the tuner, the PC and the TV, I don't see how you can avoid having at least a switch box, though being able to adjust the relative volumes and use the headphones is also rather handy.
Not too many power amps allow you the choice of choosing your input source.
For me the preamp is the 'lost' component - I have never used one - well, 40 years ago I did,
Another problem in your "thought process" and feel free to hear what i consider hi-fi anytime, i guarentee its very high on the Audio food chain and nothing like the silly stuff presented to you via "chip" ....
@Brax,
This is just silly , considering the amt of times you have mentioned the reason why the dCs was bettered by my analog was due to it's use of a noisy chip, now you want chapter and verse ..
,
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Minetinkit that a.wayne just enjoys picking a 'fight', rather than intelligently discussing the options ... this is where someone needs to go around to his house, and 'discover' what he considers good sound ...
Chapter and verse I asked for. Do you have what I said to hand by any chance?
@Frank - yes, its textbook attention seeking behaviour
More Irony from you two ....
Frank is not exposed enuff to good stuff D, he is not aware of what is actually available , mostly it seems he is looking for a monster truck while waffing thru a car show, then Complain of the little cars ...
Ohh those 17k Bryston loses 5 dbw when going from 4-2 ohms, not acceptable in my books , for 17k one would think or expect at least a decent PS...
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While Wayne does what we all do, sets his own setup as his reerence point, the problem is the fact that his setup is, to the best of my knowledge, totally unique. Before Wayne, I had never even heard of loudspeakers with a nominal impedance of 1 Ohm. Beofre any arguments, I readily accept that my experience appears to be limited. Until Wayne, my refernce point for a truly murderous load was the Apogees, which are notoriously hard to drive.
It appears that compared to Wayne's speakers they are not really to hard at all, but one must wonder: how many people have speakers like that? After all, if they represent say 0.000,001% of the total number of speaker owners, then they are really of no consequence (only statistically, of course). Asayne reported, his peak voltages are 17V, which translates into 18.2/36.4/72.8/145.6W into 8/4/2/1 Ohm.
It is my beliefe, right or wrong, that in audio, a load of 1 Ohm is considered to be an effective short circuit, as that means like 18 Amps of current with a relatively modest voltage. What happens if he decides to go for some thunder, lightning and brimstone just for the fun of it?
Obviously, from Waynes realistic point of view, any chip amp looks like a joke; I putrposely say "realistic", because has what he has, it's real, not just a mental exercise. However, on the other hand, his needs are almost unique, given that notoriously hard to drive speakers require only about one half of what he needs. Looking at it from this point of view, there are almost no series produced amps which can satisfy Wayne's needs, except perhaps for a few exalted models, with astronomical prices to boot.
Wayne, you would do well to remember that you are the hopeless minority here and everywhere for that matter, and that because of this, you need to moderate your views more towards the vast majority, which in fact defines the industry. Chip amps ARE a reasonable solution for people with less to much less demanding speakers. This of course in no way negates your actual and very real needs.
Brax and Frank, while I will readily agree that chip amps are a very viable solution to many a man's needs, they were never meant to be the ultimate solution, the universal panacea. Yes, you can put them in parallel, you can make bridged amps, you can go fully balanced, but do sit down and work it out - after everything is said and done, what was primarily made as a cheap but worthwhile solution to mass produced goods will probably be no longer cheap and may not extract what there is to extract, assuming one is buying a very powerful amp because one actually needs such an amp (even if we all know this is not always the case).
Point is, let's not fight, let's compare notes and if need be, agree that we disagree. But no harsh words, please!
It appears that compared to Wayne's speakers they are not really to hard at all, but one must wonder: how many people have speakers like that? After all, if they represent say 0.000,001% of the total number of speaker owners, then they are really of no consequence (only statistically, of course). Asayne reported, his peak voltages are 17V, which translates into 18.2/36.4/72.8/145.6W into 8/4/2/1 Ohm.
It is my beliefe, right or wrong, that in audio, a load of 1 Ohm is considered to be an effective short circuit, as that means like 18 Amps of current with a relatively modest voltage. What happens if he decides to go for some thunder, lightning and brimstone just for the fun of it?
Obviously, from Waynes realistic point of view, any chip amp looks like a joke; I putrposely say "realistic", because has what he has, it's real, not just a mental exercise. However, on the other hand, his needs are almost unique, given that notoriously hard to drive speakers require only about one half of what he needs. Looking at it from this point of view, there are almost no series produced amps which can satisfy Wayne's needs, except perhaps for a few exalted models, with astronomical prices to boot.
Wayne, you would do well to remember that you are the hopeless minority here and everywhere for that matter, and that because of this, you need to moderate your views more towards the vast majority, which in fact defines the industry. Chip amps ARE a reasonable solution for people with less to much less demanding speakers. This of course in no way negates your actual and very real needs.
Brax and Frank, while I will readily agree that chip amps are a very viable solution to many a man's needs, they were never meant to be the ultimate solution, the universal panacea. Yes, you can put them in parallel, you can make bridged amps, you can go fully balanced, but do sit down and work it out - after everything is said and done, what was primarily made as a cheap but worthwhile solution to mass produced goods will probably be no longer cheap and may not extract what there is to extract, assuming one is buying a very powerful amp because one actually needs such an amp (even if we all know this is not always the case).
Point is, let's not fight, let's compare notes and if need be, agree that we disagree. But no harsh words, please!
Frank is not exposed enuff to good stuff D, he is not aware of what is actually available , mostly it seems he is looking for a monster truck while waffing thru a car show, then Complain of the little cars ...
Ohh those 17k Bryston loses 5 dbw when going from 4-2 ohms, not acceptable in my books , for 17k one would think or expect at least a decent PS...
Here I see a possible dichotomy. After losing those 5 dBW, how many dBW are still left over?
Because if enough is left over to cover all your realistic needs worst case, what do you care?
You won't get far in this world by being a perfectionist, Wayne, or you can be that, but at an even more outrageous price point. But you definitely can't have great sex and remain innocent.
Regarding the Brystones, I don't think it's the PSU so much as that by the time you get to 1 Ohm loads, you definitely have a megaproblem with sheer heat and current dissipation in the output stage. By the time you get an average of say 50W dissipation into 1 Ohm loads, bring along a frying pan and fry some steaks over the heat sinks. Or dedicate a whole air con machine just to cool off your amps placed in a dedicated chamber. Like big mainframe machines. With 1 Ohm peaks of 100 Watts on a protracted basis, I imagine your amp will be drawing well over 1 kVA from the mains.
It seems to me you would be better off buying two more bass drivers and connecting them each in series with your existing ones, to make your effective loads at least 2 Ohms. Hell of a lot cheaper than buying wild amplification, and, let's face it, you's get a helluva bass.
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