I have a couple of the SB Acoustic 4" drivers SB12MNRX25-4 and I agree they would work very well in a three way. Should cover 300-3000 very nicely. I bought them to do some computer speakers (abusing them by running them full range) and although I've not finished it, the initial impression is that they are very nice little drivers with great vocal clarity and tonal balance. However I do not believe that they would meet the spl requirements of 105db that the OP stated. 50W input will give around 103db tops.
Actually 100W will give around 106db and it might be ok if crossed over steeply at 300Hz. However you need to consider how it fits in with the other drivers, as the base sensitivity is rated at 88.5db 2.83V /1M.
Tony.
Actually 100W will give around 106db and it might be ok if crossed over steeply at 300Hz. However you need to consider how it fits in with the other drivers, as the base sensitivity is rated at 88.5db 2.83V /1M.
Tony.
I was looking at SB 8"
but VAS is relatively big for such 'smallish' woofer
so my box is too small for optimal BR
but now I find that one of their 10" might work perfectly in closed
F6 at 30hz is quite good with 40liter box(Qtc 0.65)
the other low VAS 10" appears more like a low SPL sub driver
looks quite impressive ported, but the port gets way too big
obviously designed for using passive 'driver/cone'
and those are expencive
SB designers seem to understanding the correlation between driver and box tuning very well
regarding the closed design, there might be a small trace from Steen Duelund
You're correct Tony, though I think the OP has largely become history during the course of the ensuing thread. Partly because only a few good small drivers can sustain it, and partly because I discovered 105dB is only a requirement for peak (before clipping) in any case.
That said, I'm liking the 10F and it seems loud enough within its power rating, but to get 105dB even for peak needs around twice its peak power rating. So I may either have to compromise on SPL by a few dB (which seems small enough to be reasonable) or go for an alternative instead.
Cheers
Kev
just because a driver takes more power and thus can play loud may not mean it distorts less
for higher SPL, is there any other way than using more sensitive drivers ? ... and they may have their own kind of distortion
so, what parameters are we looking at ?
how about Fane or Celestion 5 inch studio mids ?
but basicly with pro mids intended for higher SPL, bandwith also appears too limited
for higher SPL, is there any other way than using more sensitive drivers ? ... and they may have their own kind of distortion
so, what parameters are we looking at ?
how about Fane or Celestion 5 inch studio mids ?
but basicly with pro mids intended for higher SPL, bandwith also appears too limited
Yes, its easy to find drivers that can take power and/or have a higher sensitivity, but it seems that there isn't a great deal of common ground with drivers that people rate highly (for home audio). I can get both by accepting a narrower range or (much) higher budget; but neither is very appealing.
Thats why the 10F is looking favourable at the moment, it seems to be really well regarded and relatively easy to integrate, both of which are important places for a newbie like me to start, and isn't ridiculously costly. I'd had to make a 3dB sacrifice on the peak SPL over my original post; but that seems a relatively small price to pay for the other qualities. But being a belt-and-braces type its not as comfortable as I'd like, and i do hope its just the thermal limit, and not related to the cone starting to break up badly.
Cheers
Kev
Thats why the 10F is looking favourable at the moment, it seems to be really well regarded and relatively easy to integrate, both of which are important places for a newbie like me to start, and isn't ridiculously costly. I'd had to make a 3dB sacrifice on the peak SPL over my original post; but that seems a relatively small price to pay for the other qualities. But being a belt-and-braces type its not as comfortable as I'd like, and i do hope its just the thermal limit, and not related to the cone starting to break up badly.
Cheers
Kev
there is a 15M with phase plug and ceramic magnet
and seems its got much higher power handling
I suppose its a newer driver and not known ?
http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/15m-4624g00.pdf
but regarding voice coil size
I think the small 20-25mm voice coils might be very good for nice midrange
but I also think small voice coils could be suspect to distortion at higher SPL
Yeah, I was searching around the forum before I started this thread, but quite a lot of the well regarded mids are either now obsolete (or just not available here) or else too new to have much in the way of 1st hand reviews/experience.
Face did briefly mention the 15M, saying it wasn't as refined as the 10F IRC, but thats about all. Its not quite as good off axis higher up, but would be good enough for me with a reasonably low tweeter, and has good sensitivity, so I'll check it out some more. The audax HM130C0 will get to my target SPL within its rating and seems to have lots of fans though, so is a strong contender if I decided not to compromise on the SPL.
Cheers
Kev
Face did briefly mention the 15M, saying it wasn't as refined as the 10F IRC, but thats about all. Its not quite as good off axis higher up, but would be good enough for me with a reasonably low tweeter, and has good sensitivity, so I'll check it out some more. The audax HM130C0 will get to my target SPL within its rating and seems to have lots of fans though, so is a strong contender if I decided not to compromise on the SPL.
Cheers
Kev
the good off axis probably comes from the overall rising response
once you get that down with the xo, off axis is likely to go down with it as well
the 15M response does look less smooth than the 10F
but that could be the cost of higher sensitivity and powerhandling
and if you push the 10F to its limits, maybe it would show a different response
Nope, it comes from the driver diameter and enclosure shape.
I tried the 10" in a sealed enclosure and was underwhelmed. But then again, my room doesn't provide much low end gain.I was looking at SB 8"
but VAS is relatively big for such 'smallish' woofer
so my box is too small for optimal BR
but now I find that one of their 10" might work perfectly in closed
F6 at 30hz is quite good with 40liter box(Qtc 0.65)
the other low VAS 10" appears more like a low SPL sub driver
looks quite impressive ported, but the port gets way too big
obviously designed for using passive 'driver/cone'
and those are expencive
SB designers seem to understanding the correlation between driver and box tuning very well
regarding the closed design, there might be a small trace from Steen Duelund
If a driver requires a cumbersome port, then your options are either a passive radiator or slot port.
Sorry, I assumed that the crossover or frequency would be a given.
The woofer was mounted 1.5" from floor.
1.5 inch ?
subwoofer xo ?
well, maybe you simply don't like the sound from closed bass allignment
I don't want to 'feel' the bass
I want to hear it
and IMO ... when bass reaches the point where its really felt, all the finer stuff I like to hear is already drowned, along with lots of other fine rythm details
but yeah, most want to feel the bass
and many woofers made for that kind of subbass have higher Qts than what would be considered good for hifi midbass
have you tried any of the Discovery 15W midwoofers ?
Probably not. HD is usually all about motor/suspension linearity, and those aren't balancing acts.Perhaps the distortion is a tradeoff required for something else the drivers do well... just a thought. I have nothing other than my own subjective experience to base this on, but I certainly don't find myself thinking oh my I really can't stand that 5th harmonic
Tony.
It was horizontally mounted on the bottom of a three way tower, the edge of the frame was 1.5" from the floor. My room is heavily treated, so even if you feel the low end, there's no overhang or boom unless the speaker's bottom end has a significant rise.
I've never tried the 15W, only 10F and 15M. The 10F I've used in two designs, one was used in a speaker that won the DIY NY competition this year, the other in a different design that fared almost as well. As for the 15M, I've only tested them, but haven't used them in a completed design yet. They will be paired with 5.25" waveguides loaded with Vifa XT-25's. The woofer(s) are TBD.
I take it crossed active, and low
with the very gradual rolloff maybe that more or less kills it giving too low SPL
Fair enough. Morel drivers have an unusual feature, 3" voice coil on a 5" driver. They must do it for some reason you would think (unless it is simply a marketing thing).
What I was trying to say is maybe they are willing to accept higher HD because the motor design gives them some other benefit that they feel is more beneficial than lower HD. Perhaps having a 3" voice coil reduces cone breakup, or reduces thermal compression... lets them handle much higher power... or some such other thing that is considered a reasonable tradeoff for higher distortion
Tony.
Maybe it was just a design exercise. I can't see any benefit at all, since Morel isn't (AFAIK) big in pro audio where power handling would be required. Besides, the sensitivity is crappy.Fair enough. Morel drivers have an unusual feature, 3" voice coil on a 5" driver. They must do it for some reason you would think (unless it is simply a marketing thing).
What I was trying to say is maybe they are willing to accept higher HD because the motor design gives them some other benefit that they feel is more beneficial than lower HD. Perhaps having a 3" voice coil reduces cone breakup, or reduces thermal compression... lets them handle much higher power... or some such other thing that is considered a reasonable tradeoff for higher distortion
Tony.
In short: the driver is a turd and we should all stop discussing it.
I think I may be detecting another slight preference for avoiding the morel option
Cheers
kev
So having done more research and trying to sum up, it seems to me that:
# The ss 10F finds perhaps the best (recent) comments - and where comparisions are made against (comparable) competition I've so far only ever seen it coming out the best. It falls short of the max SPL I wanted without exceeding the spec, but not so far short that it'd be out of the question if i compromised a bit.
# The audax HM130 can reach the SPLs I was aiming for, and gets very good comments though its perhaps slightly edged out by the 10F in terms of peoples preference. Opinions seem to be divided over the C0 vs Z0 (carbon fiber vs aerogel) variants, but probably neither is bad. Its a little less good off axis than the smaller drivers but still acceptible with a reasonable crossover point to the tweeter.
# The Audax HM100 that was brought up earlier also gets good reviews, though again facing stiff competition form the 10F. The SPL it can produce within spec is more than enough though I'd have to adjust my crossover range, as its got a (much) higher fs than the other drivers and also (much) lower Xmax.
#The SEA MCA12 has a lot going for it on paper, but hasn't been sited as a leader in this thread. Having looked around elsewhere it does get very good feedback so i'd probably not be dissapointed but probably has been overtaken by more recent drivers.
So none are quite fitting the whole bill, but at least I have a few very good options to choose from as I try to match with the bass and tweeter.
Cheers
Kev
# The ss 10F finds perhaps the best (recent) comments - and where comparisions are made against (comparable) competition I've so far only ever seen it coming out the best. It falls short of the max SPL I wanted without exceeding the spec, but not so far short that it'd be out of the question if i compromised a bit.
# The audax HM130 can reach the SPLs I was aiming for, and gets very good comments though its perhaps slightly edged out by the 10F in terms of peoples preference. Opinions seem to be divided over the C0 vs Z0 (carbon fiber vs aerogel) variants, but probably neither is bad. Its a little less good off axis than the smaller drivers but still acceptible with a reasonable crossover point to the tweeter.
# The Audax HM100 that was brought up earlier also gets good reviews, though again facing stiff competition form the 10F. The SPL it can produce within spec is more than enough though I'd have to adjust my crossover range, as its got a (much) higher fs than the other drivers and also (much) lower Xmax.
#The SEA MCA12 has a lot going for it on paper, but hasn't been sited as a leader in this thread. Having looked around elsewhere it does get very good feedback so i'd probably not be dissapointed but probably has been overtaken by more recent drivers.
So none are quite fitting the whole bill, but at least I have a few very good options to choose from as I try to match with the bass and tweeter.
Cheers
Kev
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