WINDOWS does not have to be a monster
I have no idea how large a LINUX installation is but for those who would like to take another path I would recommend minimizing WINDOWS.
It is surprising how little of it is actually needed to play audio as long as that is all you want, a server/cd player, it can be very good.
Having come from the cMP camp, which I like very much, and allows so much of WINDOWS to be swept away. cMP is the shell, no need for explorer.
Just finished a new install based on Lorien's WaveIO. My WINDOWS folder is 17 mBs. My config folder is 80 kBs. The system is stable. No glitches AT ALL. Previously using a JULI@ soundcard the folder was less than 16 mBs, the USB stuff takes up more space and some older .dlls that could be substituted before will not work with WaveIO, it seems.
I stick with XP because I like cMP/cPLAY - but with all of the complaints about WINDOWS that I know are legitimate you might be surprised that the minimized XP is supremely stable. Getting rid of all of those files and confusing entries in the registry allow it to work very well for audio.
It won't do anything else but then I ask those who seem to think this a disadvantage why their CD player will not receive and send emails?
So for those who do not mind a little experimentation and want to retain their ability to use an XP based player consider another option.
I have no idea how large a LINUX installation is but for those who would like to take another path I would recommend minimizing WINDOWS.
It is surprising how little of it is actually needed to play audio as long as that is all you want, a server/cd player, it can be very good.
Having come from the cMP camp, which I like very much, and allows so much of WINDOWS to be swept away. cMP is the shell, no need for explorer.
Just finished a new install based on Lorien's WaveIO. My WINDOWS folder is 17 mBs. My config folder is 80 kBs. The system is stable. No glitches AT ALL. Previously using a JULI@ soundcard the folder was less than 16 mBs, the USB stuff takes up more space and some older .dlls that could be substituted before will not work with WaveIO, it seems.
I stick with XP because I like cMP/cPLAY - but with all of the complaints about WINDOWS that I know are legitimate you might be surprised that the minimized XP is supremely stable. Getting rid of all of those files and confusing entries in the registry allow it to work very well for audio.
It won't do anything else but then I ask those who seem to think this a disadvantage why their CD player will not receive and send emails?
So for those who do not mind a little experimentation and want to retain their ability to use an XP based player consider another option.
You should give a chance to a headless system that is running entirely from memory using about 100 MB during playback.
root@mpd:~# free -h
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 7.7G 365M 7.4G 0B 19M 252M
-/+ buffers/cache: 93M 7.6G
Swap: 0B 0B 0B
It's free all you need a USB stick.
Search for mpdpup (highly recommended for starters it have a step by step setup, web interface for control), voyage mpd, work in progress daphile build around Squeezebox Server
take one of them for a spin.
imo the main draw back for linux is if you are afraid of command prompt you will reject it after 5 minutes. 99% of action is at command prompt and not searching between countless of windows and menus.
with the money for a win 8 license I can buy an arm board, a memory card, and for the rest some music.
And there is the latest windows trend 2 * 2012 server (1 healess and 1 for control) ....
I would use cplay years ago if it could be remotely controlled and runs headless, which is not the case. I mean fully remote controlled like selecting album/songs/build playlist, not only change volume or jump to previous or next track. I wasn't ready to sacrifice the usability.
Linux + mpd combo is not easy to configure, but once set it is IMHO far more comfortable to use than cplay.
Currently I use foobar + jplay under optimized Win 7 64 as my temporary DAC does not support Linux. But I'll move to ARM machine + linux once my Amanero USB arrives. My previous experience with mpdpup was very positive.
There are folks running headless
That is not a problem.
I have heard not so positive things about "pup' and I like using cPLAY.
Still, I suspect, since I cannot say I have listened to the other approaches, but on a conceptual basis, it is the purest player - least getting in the way - and when WINDOWS is minimized I figure the MB is the biggest pitfall and what can we do about that?
If one has a copy of XP laying about it is not that hard to give it a serious try. Nlite down to as little as possible - within the registry make EVERYONE your only "user" in permissions and start carving away.
Depending on whether you use a PCI sound card or an USB device will determine what you can leave out with nLite and with your registry deletions.
That is not a problem.
I have heard not so positive things about "pup' and I like using cPLAY.
Still, I suspect, since I cannot say I have listened to the other approaches, but on a conceptual basis, it is the purest player - least getting in the way - and when WINDOWS is minimized I figure the MB is the biggest pitfall and what can we do about that?
If one has a copy of XP laying about it is not that hard to give it a serious try. Nlite down to as little as possible - within the registry make EVERYONE your only "user" in permissions and start carving away.
Depending on whether you use a PCI sound card or an USB device will determine what you can leave out with nLite and with your registry deletions.
I think you should try it
ldolse and the group using mpdpup are suportive and they can give you a hand for the first installation.one of the "noisiest" component in computers is the video board. this is why I choose a headlesss aproach
imo for me it will be a step bacwards for the following reasons
- I have to install a HDD in the computer
- no headless server
- no dsd support
- my usb dac does no have a xp driver
- i will lose 4 Gb of memory as I presume that we are talking about 32 bit XP version
I think is easier to try one of the above linux distributions because each and everyone does runs from USB stick and you can go back to your system in about 5 seconds.
Linux aproach is the other way around: start with minimal system (kernel + basic system) and afterwards you can add your apps. For example my "stable" system has only the following daemons: alsa mpd and ssh.
you can have a minimal running linux in about 5 minutes (time needed to download image and write it on USB) The time consuming part comes for configuration and there mpdpup (X server) and daphile (web server) comes handy for some one without previous linux experience.
IME there is no point in convincing a happy windows user to convert to linux
I have been using linux since 2000 and I cannot imagine doing the same stuff in windows. But I understand a satisfied windows user does not seek/require the level of flexibility and simplicity I enjoy in linux.
Of course setting up a headless audio server in linux from minimum installation up is way easier than the trial/error process of removing windows services/components but only for those who are at least a bit familiar with linux.
I have been using linux since 2000 and I cannot imagine doing the same stuff in windows. But I understand a satisfied windows user does not seek/require the level of flexibility and simplicity I enjoy in linux.
Of course setting up a headless audio server in linux from minimum installation up is way easier than the trial/error process of removing windows services/components but only for those who are at least a bit familiar with linux.
IME there is no point in convincing a happy windows user to convert to linux
Haha. I don't want to convert anyone
But at least, one should test something before bashing it. (I don't know if bashing is the right word - more like try to dismiss it without a test or proper knowledge and facts) I can go over and over again against windows but I prefer to emphasize the positive facts.
IMO diy is about searching, trying and learning. Having a community that is willing to help is a great thing at least if the people try to stick with the facts and have proper explanations. We all want to move forward, even it is on different ways, and for sure we can do that respecting each other opinions and choices.
Comming back to linux, I see some new projects that are targeted for new linux users and trying to make the testing/transition as smooth as possible.
where are we going ?
You are so right, but it may also be reciprocal
But the interesting part of the question asked in the thread we are unfortunately eluding is "AUDIO". Very few seem to have compared the SQ delivered by both OS, and we have NO measures. So we will go forever between the believers...
(*)
And in the end, only SQ counts, or at least it should be criteria#1.
So in the end, just try ! even if a little problem is encountered here or there, it is still learning and have fun and exchange ideas, and that's all DIYAUDIO is there for !
Jan-Louis
(*) remember Frank Zappa's "church of appliantology"
IME there is no point in convincing a happy windows user to convert to linux
You are so right, but it may also be reciprocal
But the interesting part of the question asked in the thread we are unfortunately eluding is "AUDIO". Very few seem to have compared the SQ delivered by both OS, and we have NO measures. So we will go forever between the believers...
(*)And in the end, only SQ counts, or at least it should be criteria#1.
Being a total LINUX newbie I personally set up mpdpup in a couple of hours with all required support from Idolse on a smallish laptop, and never ever opened the case again. Just forgot it in the appliance.
So in the end, just try ! even if a little problem is encountered here or there, it is still learning and have fun and exchange ideas, and that's all DIYAUDIO is there for !
Jan-Louis
(*) remember Frank Zappa's "church of appliantology"
Linux is neither flexible, nor simple. It consumes too much time, much as a British Leyland wiring harness did. Perhaps you all like to tinker infinitely. I do not. I want to build something, and have it work every time I push the 'ON' button. Linux never does this. I want something 'to just work'. Linux is the antithesis of this. I have other priorities in life. There is not much point in debating this. I could deconstruct every single argument you make in favour of any Linux distro, but the single take away is that it wastes time. Your time. My time. Everyone's time. You call it 'community'. I call it a massive time sink with little return. It requires constant tinkering and that's wasted time. As such, I recommend that no user of an OS ever attempt to migrate to another. It's a waste of time. So if you have a Wxx library, use a Wxx audioplayer. If you have a Linux library, use a Linux audioplayer. Debate over.
Everything in this post is completely wrong and comtemptible. The only conclusion is that you are a troll. Debate over.
Hi
Having used both proprietary apple /windows and GPL free based music file programs like Rhythmbox. My opinion is the Linux programs are a far better choice both in home and work environments. I have used both systems in community based radio environments and at home. The Apple systems are fine until you want that same music on another machine as is typical where 2 or 3 studios are used. The work around I found was Opera's now abandoned Unite file server, where you could call up the Apple machines files to download to another machine.. it worked well but made you aware of the limitations that proprietary systems harbor.
I also happily used MusicMatch a windows based program for many years. The benefits of say ogg vs mp3 is a much better sound and less file space. Linux Rhythmbox is my default playout program as well as sound Convertor for ripping tracks, which I have used on both rpm and debian based operating systems.
I think a common misconception that leads to unwarranted criticism is the continual high turnover of new operating systems in Linux. The answer is to use one of the rolling distributions like Linux Mint Debian edition. You can see how exciting this community is at DistroWatch.com: Put the fun back into computing. Use Linux, BSD.
Finally its rewarding and involving to contribute yourself in some small or bigger way. I did this in a small way by solving and publishing for other peoples benefit the dependancy files for a program written by Peter Jodda called khdrecord.
The vision of Richard Stallman and the Free software foundation is exactly what the world needs.
Richard Stallman - What is free software? - YouTube
Its also fine to use the other if thats as far as your vision of software provides
Cheers / Chris
Having used both proprietary apple /windows and GPL free based music file programs like Rhythmbox. My opinion is the Linux programs are a far better choice both in home and work environments. I have used both systems in community based radio environments and at home. The Apple systems are fine until you want that same music on another machine as is typical where 2 or 3 studios are used. The work around I found was Opera's now abandoned Unite file server, where you could call up the Apple machines files to download to another machine.. it worked well but made you aware of the limitations that proprietary systems harbor.
I also happily used MusicMatch a windows based program for many years. The benefits of say ogg vs mp3 is a much better sound and less file space. Linux Rhythmbox is my default playout program as well as sound Convertor for ripping tracks, which I have used on both rpm and debian based operating systems.
I think a common misconception that leads to unwarranted criticism is the continual high turnover of new operating systems in Linux. The answer is to use one of the rolling distributions like Linux Mint Debian edition. You can see how exciting this community is at DistroWatch.com: Put the fun back into computing. Use Linux, BSD.
Finally its rewarding and involving to contribute yourself in some small or bigger way. I did this in a small way by solving and publishing for other peoples benefit the dependancy files for a program written by Peter Jodda called khdrecord.
The vision of Richard Stallman and the Free software foundation is exactly what the world needs.
Richard Stallman - What is free software? - YouTube
Its also fine to use the other if thats as far as your vision of software provides
Cheers / Chris
Great thread! Wish I had seen it earlier.
I run a Windoze XP music server, but will admit I started with a BeOS box.
Sill have the software.
Linux seems like a great idea, but I just got tired of messing with it. So XP it is.
I run a Windoze box because:
I don't like running a windoze server because:
I run a Windoze XP music server, but will admit I started with a BeOS box.
Sill have the software.Linux seems like a great idea, but I just got tired of messing with it. So XP it is.
I run a Windoze box because:
- The used computer came with XP pro
- JRiver is my player, I love it. Until recently there was only a windoze version
- Drivers are easy to find
- Remote apps are easy, I can control everything from my laptop.
I don't like running a windoze server because:
- Getting a clean, uncluttered install took some time
- Constant updates (I've turned off all that I can)
- Security issues
- It's Windoze....
Tom, that's about what I get from my little old Dell desktop that is dedicated to the music server. I was very surprised that it takes so little power. I keep dreaming of a fanless mini-PC, but wonder if it's worth the trouble.
The reason I chose Linux as a server was two fold - 1) I wanted a fanless and headless box and 2) I needed multiple sample rate support without having to pay for a player.
I did a lot with Foobar (having to manually switch sample rates), I then purchased a mac mini for an ungodly sum and tried that one, but all the headless options I was trying would stop running (this may be a weak wireless signal issue for the mac). I then loaded Ubuntu 13.4 onto the mac mini and had better luck. Then I found a cheapo network box for $220 from mitxpc with a good antenna. I put ap-linux on it (mint version optimized for the audio app). I use clementine and qjackctl and I have to say it is the easiest configuration I've used so far. All free of course.
It was far more difficult for me to get all the kernel streaming and other aspects of windows working to support the higher sample rate dacs.
Clementine has some annoying quirks but it allows you to source your library from multiple locations which puts it a light year ahead of iTunes.
Check out:
MitxPC - Product Details
and
AudioPhile Linux | Quality audio on Linux
I did a lot with Foobar (having to manually switch sample rates), I then purchased a mac mini for an ungodly sum and tried that one, but all the headless options I was trying would stop running (this may be a weak wireless signal issue for the mac). I then loaded Ubuntu 13.4 onto the mac mini and had better luck. Then I found a cheapo network box for $220 from mitxpc with a good antenna. I put ap-linux on it (mint version optimized for the audio app). I use clementine and qjackctl and I have to say it is the easiest configuration I've used so far. All free of course.
It was far more difficult for me to get all the kernel streaming and other aspects of windows working to support the higher sample rate dacs.
Clementine has some annoying quirks but it allows you to source your library from multiple locations which puts it a light year ahead of iTunes.
Check out:
MitxPC - Product Details
and
AudioPhile Linux | Quality audio on Linux
I built something in 2007 using Linux and a small x86 headless single board computer. And it just works. Every time, all the time. It works so well that I rarely vist "computer audiophile forums" anymore. I'm too busy listening to music. I said "music" and not "my system". That something is what is now Voyage MPD on Alix. It's a USB music server that pulls music off any NAS and lets you feed a USB DAC.
I've been using Linux since the late 90's. Taught myself how to use the OS because I had a feeling that something was wrong with the mass market OS's I was trying to us at the time. Some people are autodidacts no matter what the subject is. And some people realize there is a right way to get work done on a computer and a wrong way. And that right way is on any UNIX based operating system.[1]
Anyway, in 2006-2007 I had an idea for using a PC Engines Alix single board computer for feeding a USB to S/PDIF converter so that I could cook in the kitchen without having to change CD's on my Theta Data Basic every 30 min. I had already been using the PC Engines WRAP board as my firewall, but the new Alix boards had USB ports! And I didn't want a conventional PC in my listening room.
So, in about 1 hour i.e., sans "massive time sink", I had Voyage Linux running on the Alix, installed the mpd and ALSA package, edited 2 text files (fsta and mpd.conf) and had a most bad *** sounding, dead silent, controllable from any computer on my network or the world music server for all of $125 USD. If that's not a great "return" I don't know what is.
And it always works. All the time, every time. Had worked with my USB Class 1 devices and works with my now USB Class 2 Ayre QB-9 USB DAC at 24/192 (and soon DSD when the DAC is upgraded) Never an issue --ever. Never have to SSH to see why the music is not playing. Ever. I always power it down when I'm done even though the board consumes only 3 watts of power[2]. And when I turn it on it continues playing from where I left off. I can use my Android phone as a remote, and iPad or my Thinkpad. Hell, I even used my E-Ink Kindle as a remote! That was pretty neat.
You can't even install Windows on a headless device!! Have you read what those poor cPlay souls are doing to get to where I was in 2007? They are desoldering video chips and other semiconductors off of ATX motherboards in the name of electrical minimalism.
Sometimes I like to tinker with Linux and sometimes I *really* don't. In both cases Linux wins easily.
Cheers,
Nick
[1] Those who do not understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer, programmer
[2] I once ran the Alix on 8 AA batteries for over 8 hours in one music listening session. Was still running just fine when I finally got tired and went to bed.
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VNC is not even necessary because of the sever/client architecture nature or MPD. I just use MPDroid: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.namelessdev.mpdroid&hl=en
I use ncmpcpp, an ncurses app, on my Thinkpad when I need to organize big play lists.
With MPD you have the daemon running on the music server taking up very little resources. No video, keyboard or mouse required. The client, i.e., the controller/music organizer can run on any other machine on the network or the internet. And the client can be as simple as a cheap AVR micro-controller taking IR commands from a hand held remote (https://github.com/foxharp/avrlirc) or to the fanciest GUI like GMPC (Gnome Music Player Client) You can also have multiple clients running at once, all being updated simultaneously.
There is no other music player --that I know of-- that is truly written in the client-server model. And that has huge advantages.
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