Hi,
I've gone and started to get myself confused, so a little straightening out would be appreciated.
I would like to build a new subwoofer for music/sound quality first, with ht extension and slam as a secondary goal. My current sub is a Klipsch RSW-10d. It's just ok; I mostly leave it off during music because its just too slow and muddy. It's also just ok for movies, but not terrible. I've moved it about a hundred times and used different receivers and pre's so I don't think there's anymore to be had there.
My room is 22' x 14' x 9'.
I need to stay around $150-200 for the driver.
For the amp I am somewhat flexible. 300-500W plate amp probably. I even considered pilfering the 500 Bash from the Klipsch because it's digitally controlled.
The largest enclosure I can accommodate is 100L
Looking for an F3 around 25Hz or better, but as I said SQ is most important. I think I'd like to try a lower Q alignment this time, but I'm open to suggestions.
I've narrowed it down to three I think. The TC Epic 12" DVC, Dayton HF-12" and Dayton HO-15". Open to suggestions here, too.
I've modeled all of them in winisd and unibox, but I'm having a hard time understanding how these will translate to sound quality. I've used these before, but not for subwoofers.
I'm not sure how to post Winisd graphs here or I would. If someone would let me know that might be a big help.
So far what seems to look best for each driver is: TC Epic 12- BR 2.5ft^3, Dayton HO 15"- BR 2.9ft^3, Dayton HF 12" BR 3.2ft^3, Dayton HF 12" Sealed 3.2ft^3. Also, the Dayton Ultimax 12" doesn't look bad in about 3.2ft^3 sealed, but the Q is about .8.
Can someone please give me an opinion on these? Not necessarily have you heard them, just box size, tuning, watts and Q based on the driver parameters. The group delay and excursion to watts is really getting me all mixed up.
Sorry for such a long opening post.
Thanks,
Evan
I've gone and started to get myself confused, so a little straightening out would be appreciated.
I would like to build a new subwoofer for music/sound quality first, with ht extension and slam as a secondary goal. My current sub is a Klipsch RSW-10d. It's just ok; I mostly leave it off during music because its just too slow and muddy. It's also just ok for movies, but not terrible. I've moved it about a hundred times and used different receivers and pre's so I don't think there's anymore to be had there.
My room is 22' x 14' x 9'.
I need to stay around $150-200 for the driver.
For the amp I am somewhat flexible. 300-500W plate amp probably. I even considered pilfering the 500 Bash from the Klipsch because it's digitally controlled.
The largest enclosure I can accommodate is 100L
Looking for an F3 around 25Hz or better, but as I said SQ is most important. I think I'd like to try a lower Q alignment this time, but I'm open to suggestions.
I've narrowed it down to three I think. The TC Epic 12" DVC, Dayton HF-12" and Dayton HO-15". Open to suggestions here, too.
I've modeled all of them in winisd and unibox, but I'm having a hard time understanding how these will translate to sound quality. I've used these before, but not for subwoofers.
I'm not sure how to post Winisd graphs here or I would. If someone would let me know that might be a big help.
So far what seems to look best for each driver is: TC Epic 12- BR 2.5ft^3, Dayton HO 15"- BR 2.9ft^3, Dayton HF 12" BR 3.2ft^3, Dayton HF 12" Sealed 3.2ft^3. Also, the Dayton Ultimax 12" doesn't look bad in about 3.2ft^3 sealed, but the Q is about .8.
Can someone please give me an opinion on these? Not necessarily have you heard them, just box size, tuning, watts and Q based on the driver parameters. The group delay and excursion to watts is really getting me all mixed up.
Sorry for such a long opening post.
Thanks,
Evan
Greets!
FWIW, the first driver spec I look at for SQ is inductance [Le], so of the three only the 12HO qualifies for me assuming you mean the RSS315HF.
For an acoustically small, high SQ cab alignment, only sealed, ~aperiodic or other type of TL qualifies to get the desired Qt, but getting a 25 Hz F3 will probably need some form of EQ unless there’s significant room gain.
There’s programs that allow you to highlight/copy/save stuff on your screen and I’ve been told that saving them as gifs is best, then use the ‘manage attachments’ feature to add them to your post. Don’t know if there’s any freeware available anymore though, mine’s from 2000 and can’t find it in a quick search except as a much more elaborate program for a fee.
I guess some folks still just use the ‘print screen’ key to capture whole screen and use PAINT or similar to ‘erase’ what they don’t want.
GM
FWIW, the first driver spec I look at for SQ is inductance [Le], so of the three only the 12HO qualifies for me assuming you mean the RSS315HF.
For an acoustically small, high SQ cab alignment, only sealed, ~aperiodic or other type of TL qualifies to get the desired Qt, but getting a 25 Hz F3 will probably need some form of EQ unless there’s significant room gain.
There’s programs that allow you to highlight/copy/save stuff on your screen and I’ve been told that saving them as gifs is best, then use the ‘manage attachments’ feature to add them to your post. Don’t know if there’s any freeware available anymore though, mine’s from 2000 and can’t find it in a quick search except as a much more elaborate program for a fee.
I guess some folks still just use the ‘print screen’ key to capture whole screen and use PAINT or similar to ‘erase’ what they don’t want.
GM
Attachments
Hey,
I was just about to ask a different, simpler question....so here I am.
The 15" Dayton I mentioned is the RSS390HO, the RSS315HF you mentioned wasn't on the list in the op. I did model it, but it needs huge enclosures.
So you are saying to look at Le to help decide if the driver's going to have good sound quality? Assuming everything else is up to par. What kind of number should I be looking for?
The question I was about to ask was if a driver has fairly high group delay (25ms) @ 20Hz, but excursion is low, is this ok or should I be trying to get the GD down as well. Of the drivers I mentioned, it seems to be either high excursion (still below xmax) with low group delay or vise versa. All modeled at 300 watts. HO 15" seems to handle a lot more power though.
Thanks,
Evan
HO 15
My choice was a pair of HO-15's. I realize a pair is a bit higher than your budget, but if you build your own enclosure(s) maybe (?)
It's actually quite the amazing driver, especially at it's price. My bass reflex gets down to the mid 20's easily. I measured the fs of my pair and they were a tad bit lower than factory spec @ 21hz.
I think sometimes the bass reflex gets a bad rap, but to me, they always sound more relxed than a sealed box.
Of course, I am always doing things waay out-of-the-mainstream.
My choice was a pair of HO-15's. I realize a pair is a bit higher than your budget, but if you build your own enclosure(s) maybe (?)
It's actually quite the amazing driver, especially at it's price. My bass reflex gets down to the mid 20's easily. I measured the fs of my pair and they were a tad bit lower than factory spec @ 21hz.
I think sometimes the bass reflex gets a bad rap, but to me, they always sound more relxed than a sealed box.
Of course, I am always doing things waay out-of-the-mainstream.
Attachments
Sure it sounds good, but the enclosure's way too big. I really don't have room for anything bigger, believe me I would if I could.
The HO seems to be the best of the group for me, the TC-12 also. Models well in a reasonable box, high power handling. One thing that confuses me is that Parts express tells people in the Q&A that for sound quality they always recommend the HF over the HO.
I tend to agree about ported boxes; I think they get a bad rap. I like the smooth, deep, relaxed bass more than really punchy in the 40-60Hz range. As long as it integrates and not boomy. Also, I am looking for some extension because, while music is far and away the most important here, I do use it for movies and TV.
As for two, space is a concern. The only way I could do two would be a stereo pair of smaller sealed. The rooms big enough, but I designed it with everything audio video in one end. This was before I started getting serious about sound. Everything is wired in-wall on that end.
Question: I saw that O audio is going out of business and they have stock of 300W amps they're getting rid-of for cheap. Would this be enough for the TC sounds 12" or the Dayton HO-15? I don't listen at extreme levels.
Thanks
Evan
Another option that is modeling pretty well is the RSS315HF-4 12" in 2.8ft^3 sealed. Q/6.4, f3/37Hz, f10/20Hz. Maybe it could be eq'd on the low end for a little more extension using the O-audio 300W amp? It seems like xmax is reached pretty easily at 300 watts though.
Could someone explain the effects of boosting the low end and power and excursion requirements, please? Does this driver not have sufficient xmax (14mm)?
Evan
Could someone explain the effects of boosting the low end and power and excursion requirements, please? Does this driver not have sufficient xmax (14mm)?
Evan
I found the EQ filter option in Winisd so I've kind of answered my own questions here; excursion, power etc. with EQ.
Thanks anyways
Example #1:
Peerless Vifa NE315W-04 SubWoofer
NE315W04 - Neodymium Subwoofer - SPECIAL : 219.78$ - Solen Electronique Inc.
VB = 92.7 L, FB = 20.0 Hz tuning, "high" sensitivity and F8=20Hz (ff).
Peerless Vifa NE315W-04 SubWoofer
NE315W04 - Neodymium Subwoofer - SPECIAL : 219.78$ - Solen Electronique Inc.
VB = 92.7 L, FB = 20.0 Hz tuning, "high" sensitivity and F8=20Hz (ff).
Example #2:
SB Acoustics SB34SWNRX-S75 12" Woofer
Madisound SB Acoustics SB34SWNRX-S75 12" Subwoofer - Price: $188.30
In a VB = 75.0 L enclosure, tunned to FB = 19.2 Hz, F7=20Hz.
Amp power (Pmin.) 302.4 W@5.5Ohm for Xmax SPL/1.00 m 112.4 dB vs. 111.4 dB for previous example on #1 (/with Pmin. 163.8 W@3.4 Ohms).
SB Acoustics SB34SWNRX-S75 12" Woofer
Madisound SB Acoustics SB34SWNRX-S75 12" Subwoofer - Price: $188.30
In a VB = 75.0 L enclosure, tunned to FB = 19.2 Hz, F7=20Hz.
Amp power (Pmin.) 302.4 W@5.5Ohm for Xmax SPL/1.00 m 112.4 dB vs. 111.4 dB for previous example on #1 (/with Pmin. 163.8 W@3.4 Ohms).
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Example #3:
Peerless 830847 XXLS12 - Another "high" sensitivity driver (classic)
Meniscus Audio Peerless, 830847 - Item price: $97.00
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/peerless/830847.pdf
Can use sub enclosure VB = 93.5 L@FB = 19 Hz will give you 20Hz @F-6.5dB.
Amp power required for max SPL/1.00 m=113.8 dB is (Pmin.) 350 W@3.0 Ohms.
Peerless 830847 XXLS12 - Another "high" sensitivity driver (classic)
Meniscus Audio Peerless, 830847 - Item price: $97.00
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/peerless/830847.pdf
Can use sub enclosure VB = 93.5 L@FB = 19 Hz will give you 20Hz @F-6.5dB.
Amp power required for max SPL/1.00 m=113.8 dB is (Pmin.) 350 W@3.0 Ohms.
tuning
IMO 18 is too low; there is nothing to be gained and the price you pay is a dip in the response just above the tuning.
If this is for sub-woofer duties only, I don't see any benefit in going to the HF.
If memory serves, it needs a more than 3 cubic feet. Remember Hoffman's iron law. If you build this in the fashion of a classic discreet butterworth, you won't need as much power. I ran mine with 50 watts/per channel for a while.
Small sealed boxes will rob you blind in the power dept. Also, with this driver, the smaller the box, the more you will hear the oil can quality. Talk to PE about this, they will explain.
IMO 18 is too low; there is nothing to be gained and the price you pay is a dip in the response just above the tuning.
If this is for sub-woofer duties only, I don't see any benefit in going to the HF.
If memory serves, it needs a more than 3 cubic feet. Remember Hoffman's iron law. If you build this in the fashion of a classic discreet butterworth, you won't need as much power. I ran mine with 50 watts/per channel for a while.
Small sealed boxes will rob you blind in the power dept. Also, with this driver, the smaller the box, the more you will hear the oil can quality. Talk to PE about this, they will explain.
In a sealed enclosure (100L) the Dayton Audio RSS315HFA-8 12" (QTC = 0.713, F12=20Hz, max.SPL/1.00 m 106.7 dB) models nicer than the RSS315HF-4 12".
Dayton Audio RSS315HFA-8 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 8 Ohm 295-445
Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm High Fidelity Reference Series 295-464
Dayton Audio RSS315HFA-8 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 8 Ohm 295-445
Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm High Fidelity Reference Series 295-464
The Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" models nice in a BR ~82.5 L enclosure tunned to FB = 20 Hz, F7=20Hz. You need (Pmin.) 1500 W@4.0 Ohms for max excursion, SPL/1.00 m 119.9 dB.
Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm
Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm 295-469
The price of this driver at PE is $172.69 within the requirements of Evan ($150-200).
Scott,
The Fs is not 21 Hz but 24.2 Hz from spec.
You've seen my ported ref HO 15 project?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/219923-ultra-compact-ported-15-dayton-ref-ho.html
I modeled dozens of drivers and various horns before deciding to go with the ported HO as the best combination of extension, sensitivity and output for a 4 ft^3 gross box size. The model shows about 73L net, 15.5L port volume. I think you'll be very happy with 100L net tuned to 25hz, as long as you size the port large enough and use enough power.
The HO uses a very heavy and stiff aluminum cone and is very low distortion. It is certainly "quick" enough for bass frequencies. I last ran them with the following eq/filters, they have no problem producing strong kick:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/219923-ultra-compact-ported-15-dayton-ref-ho.html
I modeled dozens of drivers and various horns before deciding to go with the ported HO as the best combination of extension, sensitivity and output for a 4 ft^3 gross box size. The model shows about 73L net, 15.5L port volume. I think you'll be very happy with 100L net tuned to 25hz, as long as you size the port large enough and use enough power.
The HO uses a very heavy and stiff aluminum cone and is very low distortion. It is certainly "quick" enough for bass frequencies. I last ran them with the following eq/filters, they have no problem producing strong kick:
Scott already got to you.
18Hz is very low and when you tune low you run out of space and quality for the length of the ports with the required diameter. Many times you have to turn to passive radiators for obvious reasons, tunning low in this case.
For Dayton Audio RSS390HO-4 15" look at my previous post #17.
Wow, Inductor! Thanks for all the help. You've deffinately given me some different drivers to think about. A few on your list I didn't know about. The Vifa looks interesting as does the Dayton HFA. I'll take a look.
Scott: Are you saying there's no reason to go HF-12 over HO-15? I know the HF's need a large enclosure, it was just the implied improved SQ over the HO. I could probably squeeze a bit more size out of the enclosure if need be. The HF's curve only looked good in 3ft^3 when tuned low. In 4ft^3 it looks good around 20-24Hz.
With the dip in response before tuning, what role will the do the driver's fs play? It's 24Hz I think.
Turbodawg: Yes, I did look at your build when I searched this before posting. Wasn't it for a PA application, though? Maybe that's a different build. So you're saying the HO has very good sound quality? Any ideas about the HO compared to the HF?
Evan
Scott: Are you saying there's no reason to go HF-12 over HO-15? I know the HF's need a large enclosure, it was just the implied improved SQ over the HO. I could probably squeeze a bit more size out of the enclosure if need be. The HF's curve only looked good in 3ft^3 when tuned low. In 4ft^3 it looks good around 20-24Hz.
With the dip in response before tuning, what role will the do the driver's fs play? It's 24Hz I think.
Turbodawg: Yes, I did look at your build when I searched this before posting. Wasn't it for a PA application, though? Maybe that's a different build. So you're saying the HO has very good sound quality? Any ideas about the HO compared to the HF?
Evan
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