That because you wish to learn and grow and understand those thing that a some time are or where a mystery to you. Other already know every thing and dismiss your use of scientific protocol to do so as unproven.
Don't bother Dario. Some people here simply have their own purpose for posting. None are related to audio as much as continual silly mind games that prevent valid discovery. It's not worth the aggravation. There have been some great responses here from some knowledgeable people. It's just not worth the effort to wade through the playground. Very regrettable.
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Being open mined please offer a proven alternative that we all find acceptable .
A proven alternative to what? All we ask is evidence that there is an effect, or some vaguely plausible mechanism by which it might occur - which might to some extent make up for the lack of any hard evidence. All we get is unsupported assertions and wild pseudo-science.
If I 'heard' capacitor break-in for myself I would still require some plausible explanation, otherwise I would assume I had imagined it. It's very simple: I trust science more than I trust my ears. I certainly trust science more than I trust your ears.
If I 'heard' capacitor break-in for myself I would still require some plausible explanation, otherwise I would assume I had imagined it. It's very simple: I trust science more than I trust my ears. I certainly trust science more than I trust your ears.
As I've already said I'm an IT consultant with an IT diploma and I don't make research so the answer is simple:
None
How is this relevant?
Hello to all.
This recently unemployed Greek (me) has a few Soviet PIO high voltage capacitors. They are encased in glass, so I dont think they have a humidity issue. Some have been "broken in" in a day I had nothing more productive to do (no, I am not telling how I did it because it is against the safety guidelines). Some are still in the paper wrap since i bought them. The have all been stored in a cupboard in the nice and dry climate of Athens
I have available a sweep generator only audio frequencies, but should not mater, we are listening to audio here, right? , a Tek 465, high voltage supply, and free time. I can devote some of my time to science.
So, what is the test setup and what should I look for? I am not even joking,
This recently unemployed Greek (me) has a few Soviet PIO high voltage capacitors. They are encased in glass, so I dont think they have a humidity issue. Some have been "broken in" in a day I had nothing more productive to do (no, I am not telling how I did it because it is against the safety guidelines). Some are still in the paper wrap since i bought them. The have all been stored in a cupboard in the nice and dry climate of Athens
I have available a sweep generator only audio frequencies, but should not mater, we are listening to audio here, right? , a Tek 465, high voltage supply, and free time. I can devote some of my time to science.
So, what is the test setup and what should I look for? I am not even joking,
I recognize and respect your expertise and I'm not accusing you or others.
I simply want to understand, sincerely.
Thanks. I also forgot to say that I have an LCR meter and 4 soviet mylar capacitors, none "broken in". I can break in 2 of them using the same method and test those, too. Oh and the scope is 100Mhz.
That sounds like one or several positions that might contradict each other, but that's not the heart of my comment.
Honestly, this morning it appeared several members were interested in an attempt to try to provide the exact proof and/or scientific data you describe. What seems to have happened is not everyone is willing to stand off to the side while that process developed. We may indeed have fallen flat on our faces, but not having the results of the quest before it starts apparently precludes the validity to even begin the process.
I haven't found any empirical truth about "burn-in" of caps. But why is it so offensive to some to even discuss possibilities and maybe collectively devise a reliable method of testing? If one feels confident in one's own beliefs, they should be strong enough, and be able and willing to allow others to at least investigate without ridicule.
If the discoveries prove to be useless and invalid, that only reinforces the position of some. What is the harm of letting others learn and share without childish ridicule.
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The problem Bob is that no one has even identified an effect. Without having an effect, its somewhat premature to be positing causes.
Here's the nub for me - there may or may not be an effect that is the result of a change, as yet unidentified, in the operational characteristics of a coupling capacitor.
If there IS an repeatable effect, it would be able to be characterised.
If it can be reliably, repeatably characterised in terms of the audible presentation, a set of possible causes could begin to be identified, tested and confirmed or discarded.
Those that are confirmed can then be researched to identify what molecular (dare I say it, quantum...) effects give rise to the causal change that is characterised by the audio effect that has been identified.
There are a few here who merrily leap to the molecular (and sub-atomic) to posit a cause that is leading to an effect only they perceive. That isn't science - its guesswork based on wishful thinking.
should be trivial to measure loss varying in non-hermetic Mylar although I'd guess moisture absorbtion through wrapper, good end seals may have weeks, months time constant at room temp - heating could cut the time constants by orders of magnitude
a soundcard based impedance measurement will be more sensitive than a 'scope - but you may need impressive recalibration resolution/repeatability to sort the measurements from the soundcard's own less than stellar parts stability
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp...70bb515aa5578&bpcl=39650382&biw=1920&bih=1069
of course you could look up lots of dielectric properties vs environment, aging data in >50-70 yr old BSTJ - the telco needed filters/eq to very high accuracy, with low nonlinear distortion when chaining hundreds in early voice band long distance repeater systems
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I can only justifiably report on my own experience. That admittedly has been limited to various flavors of LM3886/MyRef DIY builds. The most obvious change I have heard was from using Black Gates. Unfortunately, many have already trashed the brand let alone allow credibility to reports (definitions) I might offer. For now I'll just characterize it as smoothing - warming during a multi-day period. There are others but that is a start.
I don't know why I heard what I did, but that was what was so interesting about the potential of this thread. If a collective had the opportunity to identify and characterize auditory impressions, it would offer the beginnings of determining what equipment and procedures might lead to the discovery of some scientifically validated data. My disappointment stems from not being able to even start any of that without detractions for those who don't want to participate.
Probably wouldn't cause shock waves throughout the audio world, but it would be enjoyable and potentially useful for the members involved.
I don't know why I heard what I did, but that was what was so interesting about the potential of this thread. If a collective had the opportunity to identify and characterize auditory impressions, it would offer the beginnings of determining what equipment and procedures might lead to the discovery of some scientifically validated data. My disappointment stems from not being able to even start any of that without detractions for those who don't want to participate.
Probably wouldn't cause shock waves throughout the audio world, but it would be enjoyable and potentially useful for the members involved.
Here's a start for you then and you don't even need ot have esoteric test equipment.
It has been noted earlier in this thread (and in most threads of this type) that the result of "breaking in" is invariably a perception of improvement in the quality of the sound.
Potentially, this could be a reporting failing - people don't report burning in that doesn't result in a "better" sound.
In any case, a pointer could be found by identifying the ratio of burn in descriptions that identify a positive outcome vs negative outcome.
I'd expect a 50:50 result, or reasonably close to it, if burn in was a physical property change in the cap. After all, logically the effect (whatever it is) will cause the cap to drift either above or below (or more likely, closer to or further away from) optimum.
If the literature review finds a significant tendency to positive outcomes, that needs to be understood before anything else.
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