Hmmm.... I'll have to unroll one of my Panasonic FM series caps to take a look.
You will get rid of interferences and reflections originated by interferences. I can make you sure that sound is VERY different with properly terminated cables. Seemingly less bass, but much better defined. Everything is better defined and you can set much higher volume without having the system aggressive.
I'm not sure that just having the power amp close to the speaker isnt changing one set of problems for another -- namely, long interconnects. Possibly the fibre optic interconnect or digital coax with regen at load end will overcome analog parasitic, grounding, shielding et al issues or at least reduce the number and/or minimise the issues. In fact, that is the direction all this has lead me into. Sorry to say. Thx-RNMarsh
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Can we all agree about this endless question of cables with simple conclusions ?
1- The influence of a cable is mainly due to his electrical characteristic (impedance) in relation with the source and target impedances curves and the way they behaves with its charge.
2- About propagation delays, care to wave lines theory is more efficient than any other consideration ?
3: If they exists the differences between similar measured cables are more than a degree of magnitude compared with the parts around (tolerances of components values, distortion, noise, bandwidth).
4- So it is more efficient to work on the devices situated at the two sides of the cables to get the desired results or changes.
5- An let audiophiles, witch have not enough electronic knowledge to work on them, or consider the parts around their cables as perfect black boxes playing with this endless quest of perfection listening to subtitle or supposed differences biased by their believes in magic behavior of material ?
1- The influence of a cable is mainly due to his electrical characteristic (impedance) in relation with the source and target impedances curves and the way they behaves with its charge.
2- About propagation delays, care to wave lines theory is more efficient than any other consideration ?
3: If they exists the differences between similar measured cables are more than a degree of magnitude compared with the parts around (tolerances of components values, distortion, noise, bandwidth).
4- So it is more efficient to work on the devices situated at the two sides of the cables to get the desired results or changes.
5- An let audiophiles, witch have not enough electronic knowledge to work on them, or consider the parts around their cables as perfect black boxes playing with this endless quest of perfection listening to subtitle or supposed differences biased by their believes in magic behavior of material ?
Another one not concentrating! You cannot properly terminate an audio cable. Not at all frequencies, anyway. From a few kHz up, maybe. This is because at LF the cable characteristic impedance is frequency dependent and not resistive.PMA said:
Fortunately, it doesn't matter that you can't which is why most people don't even try to.
My response "do the math" was not obfuscation, it was just blunt. You need to inject some back-of-the-envelope sanity checks into your assertions.
Please don't put words in my mouth. All I was saying was that it takes about 500 feet of cable to create a 1us delay - nothing about settling. Gees! It seems to me that 500 feet at 2ns/ft = 1000ns = 1us. What is wrong with that?
Cheers,
Bob
Neutrik XLR are 110 ohm impedance if I recall, so cable, connector , and termination have to match no? yes? No? Yes? No? Yes? Erno Borbely proposed driving the cable with a balanced output with each phase series 55 ohm resistors ( DH Labs makes a 110 ohm balanced cable with silver plated OFC copper and Teflon dielectric to drive Sy nuts) and lowering the amplifier's input impedance/feedback network for a balanced 110 ohm input.
I used be indecisive, but now I'm not sure.....
I used be indecisive, but now I'm not sure.....
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Neutron, where & when did you conduct research into audibility? I've some small experience in the field too.Discussion of audibility requires understanding audibility. Welcome to my world. Please, pull up a seat and stay a while..
No problem w/rt to words in mouth..
It is more an understanding of physics.
It is not physically possible to get a 500 foot line to settle down down in 2 or even 10 microseconds if the load is not matched to the line.
No way, no how.
When the load is 8 and the line is 100 and you step 80 volts at the source, the load will not have 10 amperes within it for a very long time.
You are confusing a matched termination with the abysmal thing we do with speaker wires.
jn
JC, I would be happy to get the Dynamic Duo (Lipsh*tz & Vanderkooy) to supervise a Double Blind Listening Test of Blowtorch against a cheapo 4558 product.
This is MUCH easier & cheaper to do properly than with speakers. But it's still quite a major exercise so lets weed out the rubbish first.
Can we see some results of your Hirata test on Blowtorch and Quan's test too to compare with 4558?
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Hmmm ... a lot of maths flying around at the moment, I wonder if it's going to make any difference to getting good sound. I have to say that the difference between exceptional and unacceptable sound, for me, has never depended upon playing with factors that the calculations discussed over the last day or so have anything to do with.
One thing intrigues me: the standard of imaging that some people here expect to, or do achieve from their systems is not particularly high. For me, a key outcome is that the speaker completely disappears, meaning that my hearing mechanism doesn't ever perceive that the sound is coming from the speaker drivers -- anyone else working on similar objectives ... ?
Frank
One thing intrigues me: the standard of imaging that some people here expect to, or do achieve from their systems is not particularly high. For me, a key outcome is that the speaker completely disappears, meaning that my hearing mechanism doesn't ever perceive that the sound is coming from the speaker drivers -- anyone else working on similar objectives ... ?
Frank
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This is essentially the gist of Absolute Listening Tests - Further Progess We also suggest you look again at the amp. output when you connect the supa dupa cables and speaker.
Measure & Listen. Listen & Measure. Test your hypothesis. Much better than pontificating or refusing to release the results of tests cos they show your product in bad light.
You might learn stuff that you'd never believed possible eg $zillion product might sound worse than cheapo 4558 stuff.
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I tried random resistances values in my last amp: Smelled burnt and no sound at all.
I don't understand, closing your eyes, don't you feel the singer right in between your speakers at various distances following various records, and orchestra occupying all space behind him, in a more larger space than your room ?
Can't you point precisely your finger in direction of each instrument ?
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Given the fact that most of my listening is done with headphones, that option is, shall we say, interesting...
Given the fact that many have accused me of having a hole in my head, perhaps it's not a far fetched one at that..
jn
Well, easy then- you can digitally simulate these delays and try to ABX with whatever test signals you think appropriate- I'd certainly want to give it a shot, I'm very sensitive to localization problems.
I was referring to all this esoteric discussion of transmission cable behaviours ...
Of course. I'm sure your system does very nicely, but others here still seem to be struggling about stabilising a central image.
There are numerous tests of the quality of the image illusion that I've added to my kitbag over the years. One is, put on a genuine monophonic recording, where you're certain that the information is identical in the two channels, even the low level noise. Then, standing in the middle at normal listening distance there should be a very nice soundstage, with good apparent depth; then move to the left or right until you're in line with one of the speakers, as you do so the sound should follow that motion, no change in image, it just appears to occur behind the speaker you're in front of.
Next, move slightly towards the centre, at normal distance: the sound should come from besides the speaker you're nominally in line with. Then, move forwards as if to walk past the inside side of that speaker. If all goes well you will be able to go right up to the speaker and the illusion won't be lost, it will still sound as if it's coming from beside, and behind that speaker, directly in front of you. Typically, at some point the "mirage" will fail, and you will clearly hear that the sound is coming from the speaker drivers ...
Frank
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He just has to post his Hirata results. Then the situation resolves to a much simpler one. To paraphrase Scott ..ricardo, that poor equine just wants to be left in peace ...
"JC, likes stuff that does badly with Hirata, Quan & Listening Tests in comparison with 4558 stuff. So what?"
I'm assuming JC will decline help to resolve the problems in Blowtorch.
Refusing to release results brings up far more serious issues.
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