an interesting discussion with JW as participant:
Why do musicians have lousy music systems? Parasam
Why do musicians have lousy music systems? Parasam
I see, but two channel can be worse or better, even much better - as far as holographic quality of virtual soundsources is concerned - and conventional forward radiating loudspeakers in a conventional stereo triangle is actually the worst stereo setup that can be, in that regard again - as far as holographic quality of virtual soundsources is concerned - it is just like TV set, the analogy is very good, the sound "image" is just flat
but two channel stereo - with conventional recordings - can be much better if done better, that is not according to any tradition but according to science - this is actually the case John Watkinson makes
When the recording mic and the playback earphones are in the same location, they produce the most realistic presentation I have experienced. If played back in the same room as recorded, it can confuse your perception with ongoing events. Someone talking behind you may not really be there.
soongsc,
Did you mean to say headphones or was that a mistake? With headphones it doesn't matter where you are in a room, so I didn't understand that statement. Are you saying that speakers in the exact same place as the recording mics were when recording in the same room playing back the original recording?
Did you mean to say headphones or was that a mistake? With headphones it doesn't matter where you are in a room, so I didn't understand that statement. Are you saying that speakers in the exact same place as the recording mics were when recording in the same room playing back the original recording?
I think that with realistic recording (which means: preserving natural directional cues) even quasi-anechoic headphone-like approach with loudspeakers can work on the condition there is no stereo crosstalk
all those requirements are pretty tough to meet in practice though - good recording + no reflections (horns/waveguides + highly damped room) + stereo crosstalk cancellation (ambiophonic-like mechanical barrier?) + a vice for the listener's head
it is pretty difficult to emulate earphone experience with loudspeakers
ps.
OTOH I remember that my stereolit-like bipolar stereo speakers tended to sound a lot like externalised headphones (not just my opinion but also of visiting friends, non-audiophiles)
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Graaf,
I think that we can agree that headphones and loudspeakers are a very different experience even with the same source material. As you say if the channels have no cross-talk in headphones that will never follow with the loudspeaker. I don't really know how to compare or qualify the two very different reproduction methods.
I think that we can agree that headphones and loudspeakers are a very different experience even with the same source material. As you say if the channels have no cross-talk in headphones that will never follow with the loudspeaker. I don't really know how to compare or qualify the two very different reproduction methods.
Hi Tom
I believe this is caused by the strong back reflection which behaves like an additional sound source shifting the phantom source.
What driver size do you have in mind?
I believe this is caused by the strong back reflection which behaves like an additional sound source shifting the phantom source.
What driver size do you have in mind?
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You mean that the stereo crosstalk in a loudspeaker setup is inevitable? Then You're wrong - it can be eliminated or sufficiently diminished by means of physical barrier or electronic filtering
besides there are methods of diminishing negative effects of crosstalk by way of lowering Interaural Cross Correlation (IACC, about IACC) (bipole stereo is one)
BTW interesting study:
http://mail.ramsete.com/Public/Papers/206-AES118.pdf
It looks like "stereo dipole" (crosstalk cancelled stereo pair of loudspeakers) is in some respects better than binaural setup with headphones, typically regarded as a kind of "ideal reproduction system"
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Graaf,
You are not talking a typical application through a typical amplification system. You are talking about a very manipulated sound system using filtering and room treatment to even consider this phenomena. And I for one am not having my head put in a clamp so it is in an exact position. Your argument is just for argument sake. Take a normal recording and a normal set of speakers through a standard amplifier and you better be able to tell the difference, they are a totally different experience.
You are not talking a typical application through a typical amplification system. You are talking about a very manipulated sound system using filtering and room treatment to even consider this phenomena. And I for one am not having my head put in a clamp so it is in an exact position. Your argument is just for argument sake. Take a normal recording and a normal set of speakers through a standard amplifier and you better be able to tell the difference, they are a totally different experience.
not really, the problem of stereo crosstalk can be addressed in many ways, first of all stereo dipole doesn't need to be fully fledged ambiophonic matrix with convolution to work, besides various unconventional stereo setups presented here on the forum address the problem by way of lowering the IACC for example stereolit-like bipolar speakers or flooders
many audiophiles don't mind having head in a vice
but I am not one of them
You don't need to have Your head in a clamp with unconventional stereo setups mentioned above
of course they are different, therefore I have said that "it is pretty difficult to emulate earphone experience with loudspeakers"
yet I think that we can compare any two systems designed for sound reproduction because the measure is the same - realism, how realistic is it?
sincerely it is not, You said: "I don't really know how to compare or qualify the two very different reproduction methods" and I disagree, I think we can compare, why not?
You can make loudspeakers sound like headphones, in-head localisation included, and You can make headphones sound like loudspeakers, with externalised virtual sound sources
of course I am not, why should I? Truth is that "typical applications" suck, both subjectively and scientifically, there is really nothing to talk about.
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ps.
from:
Why do musicians have lousy music systems? Parasam
Here is an opinion of an AES Fellow, a renown author of ia: "The Art of Digital Audio", "The Art of Digital Video", "The Art of Sound Reproduction", "TV Fundamentals", "Audio for Television" and co-author of "The Digital Interface Handbook" and "Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook":
in particular:
from:
Why do musicians have lousy music systems? Parasam
Here is an opinion of an AES Fellow, a renown author of ia: "The Art of Digital Audio", "The Art of Digital Video", "The Art of Sound Reproduction", "TV Fundamentals", "Audio for Television" and co-author of "The Digital Interface Handbook" and "Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook":
in particular:
It can add realism but to me it's a highly compromised approach for various reasons. A better approach is adding more channels (not necessarily more speakers) so the producer gets back in control how something should sound.
You don't get in-head localization under anechoic conditions. The filtering done by the outer ear (HRTF) prevents that from happening.
thank You Markus
more realism as a highly compromised approach? what is compromised? producer's control over production?
I find it strange that for some people here realism of sound reproduction is less important then producer's control over production, it must have something with their cultural background
Markus,
The only way I see a headphone working like a loudspeaker is if it looked like Mickey Mouse ears and you had more than one diaphragm inside the headphone with different path angles, not a single diaphragm headphone directly opposed on each side of your head. Who listens to music in an anechoic chamber or would want to reproduce that environment? That is not a normal sound experience, totally unnatural.
The only way I see a headphone working like a loudspeaker is if it looked like Mickey Mouse ears and you had more than one diaphragm inside the headphone with different path angles, not a single diaphragm headphone directly opposed on each side of your head. Who listens to music in an anechoic chamber or would want to reproduce that environment? That is not a normal sound experience, totally unnatural.
for many audiophile listeners this is in fact the ideal, I mean quasi-anechoic eliminating of any interaction between the speakers nad the room as if "taking the room out of the sound equation", not for me
Graaf,
I hope we can agree then that an anechoic chamber is not for music and trying to simulate that is silly. I understand a live end, dead end room configuration, but only at some frequencies can you control a rooms response curve. If that is what they truly want just put the speakers outside and that is going to be as close as you are going to get to no room reflections. I can even understand soffit mounted speakers as approaching an infinite baffle. I am just not a fan of Dipoles, I know some people love them I am just not one of those people. I have nothing against electrostatic speakers either but I like more SPL and bass at times than mostly the low frequency extension. They do sound sweet though.
I hope we can agree then that an anechoic chamber is not for music and trying to simulate that is silly. I understand a live end, dead end room configuration, but only at some frequencies can you control a rooms response curve. If that is what they truly want just put the speakers outside and that is going to be as close as you are going to get to no room reflections. I can even understand soffit mounted speakers as approaching an infinite baffle. I am just not a fan of Dipoles, I know some people love them I am just not one of those people. I have nothing against electrostatic speakers either but I like more SPL and bass at times than mostly the low frequency extension. They do sound sweet though.
exactly, of course we can agree
exactly Mr Danley's idea, isn't it?
neither am I, in case there was a misunderstanding - "stereo dipole" is actually a misleading name, it has nothing to do with "dipole speakers", actually I am no fan of both (dipole speakers and stereo dipole)
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