A few months ago I got interested in the whole 'chipamp' idea. I needed a modest amplifier to power some modest room speakers and I decided to try building rather than buying, just for interests sake.
I have built a fair number of electronic projects over the years since it is related to what I do for a living. I bought a simple ChipAmp system from chipamp.com (NI3886-KIT-ST) and a Standard MyRef C(E) kit (standard components). I put these together without incident and after testing I put them in some metal cases. The only odd thing that I did was build a separate +/-24V DC power supply. I did this because I hate messing with transformers, fuses, switches and the like and so I made a single power supply that could be used with either amp. I cannot see anyway that powering the amplifiers with DC rather than AC makes them 'worse' than supplying AC. And yes, I did use big smoothing capacitors so the power supply is NOT current starved. Remember, the amplifiers own smoothing was still in place.
Either amp is adequate for my original needs, however, I wanted to compare the units with a good commercial amplifier to see how good they really were. I chose a friends system for two reasons: 1) his listening room is very discriminating 2) it was easy to get two opinions from the testing.
Details. CD player (Ah! Njoe Tjoeb) into an Anthem Integrated 225 amplifier into custom built speakers. To make the test as fair as possible, the preamp from the Anthem was used to power each power-amp in turn. The preamp also fed the sub-woofer each time. In this way, the system was IDENTICAL (wires and all) except for the power amp stage. We normalized the volume as best we could and set it so that neither of my amps was at more than 70% of max volume.
Results.
None of the amplifiers was objectionable in any way.
1) The ChipAmp sounded 'flat' and the soundstage was limited to the speakers (i.e. oh, there is sound from one speaker, oh, and there is sound from the other). It made music sound dull, like piped music in a high class elevator.
2) The MyRef sounded less flat and had some soundstage, but the music seemed to lack punch at the lower end. When the music became complex, the amplifier seemed to be 'working' to keep up (i.e. separating the music from vocals). All things considered it was not too bad and if I had paid $200 for a commercial unit of that sound quality I might not have been bitching. The snag is that all components and shipping considered, I paid only a little less to build the unit myself.
3) The Anthem had way more punch in the lower midrange (remember the subwoofer was the same in each case) and it sounded as though the bands were in the room. It was musical and effortless.
All in all, there was no comparison, the Anthem was by far the best.
I wondered if it is fair to compare the Anthem (expensive) to the home built units (cheap components, more with the hardware and box). I think it probably is for the following reason. The Anthem retails for ~$1500, so it must leave the factory costing $750. Factor in $120 to assemble, $20 for the remote, $10 for the box and manual, $80 for the transformer, $100 for the heatsinks, case and switches, $50 for the motorized volume control and $25 for the rear terminals etc. That leaves $345 for the amplifier boards, R&D and profit. I therefore suggest that the total value of the amplifier boards and components (excluding hardware) is probably not too dissimilar between my home built units and an expensive commercial unit. It appears, however, that you get something for your money.
My two cents.
I have built a fair number of electronic projects over the years since it is related to what I do for a living. I bought a simple ChipAmp system from chipamp.com (NI3886-KIT-ST) and a Standard MyRef C(E) kit (standard components). I put these together without incident and after testing I put them in some metal cases. The only odd thing that I did was build a separate +/-24V DC power supply. I did this because I hate messing with transformers, fuses, switches and the like and so I made a single power supply that could be used with either amp. I cannot see anyway that powering the amplifiers with DC rather than AC makes them 'worse' than supplying AC. And yes, I did use big smoothing capacitors so the power supply is NOT current starved. Remember, the amplifiers own smoothing was still in place.
Either amp is adequate for my original needs, however, I wanted to compare the units with a good commercial amplifier to see how good they really were. I chose a friends system for two reasons: 1) his listening room is very discriminating 2) it was easy to get two opinions from the testing.
Details. CD player (Ah! Njoe Tjoeb) into an Anthem Integrated 225 amplifier into custom built speakers. To make the test as fair as possible, the preamp from the Anthem was used to power each power-amp in turn. The preamp also fed the sub-woofer each time. In this way, the system was IDENTICAL (wires and all) except for the power amp stage. We normalized the volume as best we could and set it so that neither of my amps was at more than 70% of max volume.
Results.
None of the amplifiers was objectionable in any way.
1) The ChipAmp sounded 'flat' and the soundstage was limited to the speakers (i.e. oh, there is sound from one speaker, oh, and there is sound from the other). It made music sound dull, like piped music in a high class elevator.
2) The MyRef sounded less flat and had some soundstage, but the music seemed to lack punch at the lower end. When the music became complex, the amplifier seemed to be 'working' to keep up (i.e. separating the music from vocals). All things considered it was not too bad and if I had paid $200 for a commercial unit of that sound quality I might not have been bitching. The snag is that all components and shipping considered, I paid only a little less to build the unit myself.
3) The Anthem had way more punch in the lower midrange (remember the subwoofer was the same in each case) and it sounded as though the bands were in the room. It was musical and effortless.
All in all, there was no comparison, the Anthem was by far the best.
I wondered if it is fair to compare the Anthem (expensive) to the home built units (cheap components, more with the hardware and box). I think it probably is for the following reason. The Anthem retails for ~$1500, so it must leave the factory costing $750. Factor in $120 to assemble, $20 for the remote, $10 for the box and manual, $80 for the transformer, $100 for the heatsinks, case and switches, $50 for the motorized volume control and $25 for the rear terminals etc. That leaves $345 for the amplifier boards, R&D and profit. I therefore suggest that the total value of the amplifier boards and components (excluding hardware) is probably not too dissimilar between my home built units and an expensive commercial unit. It appears, however, that you get something for your money.
My two cents.
Thanks for the review. BTW, there are further upgrades possible to the MyRef signal chain if you're in the $1.5k budget range. The options include:
1) A Lighter Note LDR-based passive attenuator.
2) A pre-amp or buffer like the Pass B1.
3) Film/foil input coupling caps like Mundorf, Sonicap, Audyn, etc.
4) More extensive use of Black Gates at several locations.
5) R-core power transformer.
6) LF01 hybrid/discrete opamp.
7) Improved shunt regulators for the opamp.
My_Ref's performance can vary a lot according to parts used.
A parts optimized My_Ref has a wide and deep soundstage and don't lacks puch.
Punch is also related to power rating and you're comparing a 46W ampli Vs a 225W one... not a fair comparison, IMHO.
Particularly if loudspeakers have low sensitivity.
Well i did compared the Myref at my friend's house.He's using BW CM7 floorstander with
Rotel RB-1070 poweramp.Standing next to a 130W amp the Ref looked like a toy.I also was worried about the ability to drive the low impedance of the BW.
So we connected everything and hit play.The room exploded with massive soundstage
and bass depth we didn't hear with the rotel.Dynamics were also more noticeable.There was more detail right from the start.My friend said it sounds ''Too dynamic''.Well it is compared to the flat,lifeless rotel sound.
The myref was basic TP kit but with Mundorf input cap and 500VA 2x22V toroid.
For the record i use different diy amp now but i might consider building another 'upgraded' version of the Myref.
version
Rotel RB-1070 poweramp.Standing next to a 130W amp the Ref looked like a toy.I also was worried about the ability to drive the low impedance of the BW.
So we connected everything and hit play.The room exploded with massive soundstage
and bass depth we didn't hear with the rotel.Dynamics were also more noticeable.There was more detail right from the start.My friend said it sounds ''Too dynamic''.Well it is compared to the flat,lifeless rotel sound.
The myref was basic TP kit but with Mundorf input cap and 500VA 2x22V toroid.
For the record i use different diy amp now but i might consider building another 'upgraded' version of the Myref.
version
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Nose,
I suspect the Power Amplifier cost including the transformer and heatsinks is quite a bit less than your final $345 shown for R+D+power amp.
As an overall package of remote controlled phono+aux+pre+power, it seems like a rather nice bit of kit, giving good value for your money.
The really nice bit, it suits you and your ears.
Clave,
on price and value, I think it is a very fair comparison.
I suspect the Power Amplifier cost including the transformer and heatsinks is quite a bit less than your final $345 shown for R+D+power amp.
As an overall package of remote controlled phono+aux+pre+power, it seems like a rather nice bit of kit, giving good value for your money.
The really nice bit, it suits you and your ears.
Clave,
on price and value, I think it is a very fair comparison.
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When I was in the audio business (sales) we had rule of thumbs regarding product cost. It was that product cost was 1/10 of sales cost. There adding another or better component costing 10$, the sales price would increase with 100$. That's why the producing company will keep the cost as low as possible, even if the additional cost seem small to the DIY'er.
Actually, 8x to 10x is a pretty universal (and not unreasonable) overall markup from parts cost to retail cost in many industries.
- the factory usually take a 100% markup to cover assembly costs, capital outlay, and their own small margin.
- the distributor takes a 100% markup on their cost.
- the retailer gets 100% markup.
So 2 x 2 x 2 and there is your 8x. It all adds up.
Note that the "distributor" can take several different forms - a "manufacturer" may outsource much, if not all, of the actual assembly of the product (eg. most of the electronics and computer industries), in which case effectively becomes the "designer/distributor".
-b
- the factory usually take a 100% markup to cover assembly costs, capital outlay, and their own small margin.
- the distributor takes a 100% markup on their cost.
- the retailer gets 100% markup.
So 2 x 2 x 2 and there is your 8x. It all adds up.
Note that the "distributor" can take several different forms - a "manufacturer" may outsource much, if not all, of the actual assembly of the product (eg. most of the electronics and computer industries), in which case effectively becomes the "designer/distributor".
-b
Did you match levels at the speaker outputs with a multimeter? If not, chances are you were hearing variations in gain structure as much as anything else.
How efficient are your speakers and what was the listening difference?
Though overall it's not a huge surprise that a very well designed and made commercial amp with scads of power can beat out a design with more limited output.
How efficient are your speakers and what was the listening difference?
Though overall it's not a huge surprise that a very well designed and made commercial amp with scads of power can beat out a design with more limited output.
I think some people are missing my main point, others are not.
We tried the systems in a room in which music is listened to although it was a known discriminating room. We only balanced the volume by ear, but that apparent volume was set by the quietist amp (My Ref C) so that it was not 'pegged'. The music was normal listening volume. If the amp cannot perform in the room chosen at a volume level that one would want to listen to music, that is inherently a fault with the amp. If that fault is musical, that is one thing, if that is that the amp is not powerful enough that is another. We could repeat the test in a broom cupboard, but that is not how the things will be used.
My main point is that if one has a budget of $70-100 dollars for poweramp boards and components (no hardware) the audio industry has a better way of spending it than the amps I built (that is those amps I had, not the myriad amps I might have built). The snag with commercial units is that one has to buy the hardware/profit/R&D etc. as well!
Slightly off topic, I might add that my friend and I have joked about starting a new audio magazine called "Blind A/B Test". We guess it would last about 3 editions before we were blacklisted by the major manufacturers. It seems to us that above a certain audio quality, the best way to 'improve' the sound is to double the sale price.
We have also discussed using a 24bit digitizer attached to the speaker inputs and normalization and spectral methods to try and quantify what 'better' actually means for a given section of music. What do we mean by better, warmer, musical, punch, soundstage and all those other nebulous terms I (and others) use? For instance, I tend to mention soundstage when comparing components, my friend tends to discuss separation of vocals from the instruments and tonal balance. In the end though we tend to rank components in a similar manner.
ps. one other quick note. My friends Ah! packed up a while ago and so we compared his Oppo BD-93 DVD player in cd player mode to my Ah! to see how good it was. We agreed the Ah! was 'better' for all tracks EXCEPT one, where the Oppo was noticeably 'better'. That was a surprise and a valuable lesson. I repaired the Ah! for him.
Enough of my ramblings.
We tried the systems in a room in which music is listened to although it was a known discriminating room. We only balanced the volume by ear, but that apparent volume was set by the quietist amp (My Ref C) so that it was not 'pegged'. The music was normal listening volume. If the amp cannot perform in the room chosen at a volume level that one would want to listen to music, that is inherently a fault with the amp. If that fault is musical, that is one thing, if that is that the amp is not powerful enough that is another. We could repeat the test in a broom cupboard, but that is not how the things will be used.
My main point is that if one has a budget of $70-100 dollars for poweramp boards and components (no hardware) the audio industry has a better way of spending it than the amps I built (that is those amps I had, not the myriad amps I might have built). The snag with commercial units is that one has to buy the hardware/profit/R&D etc. as well!
Slightly off topic, I might add that my friend and I have joked about starting a new audio magazine called "Blind A/B Test". We guess it would last about 3 editions before we were blacklisted by the major manufacturers. It seems to us that above a certain audio quality, the best way to 'improve' the sound is to double the sale price.
We have also discussed using a 24bit digitizer attached to the speaker inputs and normalization and spectral methods to try and quantify what 'better' actually means for a given section of music. What do we mean by better, warmer, musical, punch, soundstage and all those other nebulous terms I (and others) use? For instance, I tend to mention soundstage when comparing components, my friend tends to discuss separation of vocals from the instruments and tonal balance. In the end though we tend to rank components in a similar manner.
ps. one other quick note. My friends Ah! packed up a while ago and so we compared his Oppo BD-93 DVD player in cd player mode to my Ah! to see how good it was. We agreed the Ah! was 'better' for all tracks EXCEPT one, where the Oppo was noticeably 'better'. That was a surprise and a valuable lesson. I repaired the Ah! for him.
Enough of my ramblings.
My 2 cents – For the past few weeks I’ve been doing comparisons on an even narrower group – various flavors of the MyRef/LM3886 family. The words and phrases I might use to describe my impressions are indeed inadequate, but in truth – all we as humans have at our disposal. I recently discovered my ability to hear the full audio spectrum has changed due to the natural ageing process. A poster on the MyRef FE project suggested a standardized set of speakers for the beta builders – which I heartily endorsed – got little to no support. When the various room characteristics are necessarily included in the equation, things get even messier.
We all could add to the list of variables for days so I won’t even try to be definitive. I’m beginning to believe that the book title from the 60s really applies to the audio world – “When you meet the Guru in the middle of the road, run the other way.” That doesn’t diminish or challenge the honesty/validity of ones stated impressions. There just doesn’t appear to be a one size fits all – either sonically or with lab tools - method in an area that in its very nature is at least half artistic.
I think the best we can do is use the terms we have to report what each of us experience/prefer (with as complete a description of limiting elements as is practical), and leave the determination of “Best” to those would enjoy calculating Pi to “Infinity and Beyond”.
We all could add to the list of variables for days so I won’t even try to be definitive. I’m beginning to believe that the book title from the 60s really applies to the audio world – “When you meet the Guru in the middle of the road, run the other way.” That doesn’t diminish or challenge the honesty/validity of ones stated impressions. There just doesn’t appear to be a one size fits all – either sonically or with lab tools - method in an area that in its very nature is at least half artistic.
I think the best we can do is use the terms we have to report what each of us experience/prefer (with as complete a description of limiting elements as is practical), and leave the determination of “Best” to those would enjoy calculating Pi to “Infinity and Beyond”.
But still the (much) more powerfull amp has the advantage of more current capability
I must repeat myself, this is not a fair test.
This is non-sense, particularly in DIY forum...
People approach DIY not only for budget reasons but also to have things done exactly like they want, free of manifacturers cost oriented design choices.
The $70-100 dollars budget is different between you and the manifacturer.
- the manifacturer pays much less parts, since it buy them in quantities.
- you don't pay the manifacturing cost but retail price.
My 2 cents – For the past few weeks I’ve been doing comparisons on an even narrower group – various flavors of the MyRef/LM3886 family. The words and phrases I might use to describe my impressions are indeed inadequate, but in truth – all we as humans have at our disposal. I recently discovered my ability to hear the full audio spectrum has changed due to the natural ageing process. A poster on the MyRef FE project suggested a standardized set of speakers for the beta builders – which I heartily endorsed – got little to no support. When the various room characteristics are necessarily included in the equation, things get even messier.
We all could add to the list of variables for days so I won’t even try to be definitive. I’m beginning to believe that the book title from the 60s really applies to the audio world – “When you meet the Guru in the middle of the road, run the other way.” That doesn’t diminish or challenge the honesty/validity of ones stated impressions. There just doesn’t appear to be a one size fits all – either sonically or with lab tools - method in an area that in its very nature is at least half artistic.
I think the best we can do is use the terms we have to report what each of us experience/prefer (with as complete a description of limiting elements as is practical), and leave the determination of “Best” to those would enjoy calculating Pi to “Infinity and Beyond”.
+1
My experience runs 100% percent counter to the OP's thoughts/experience on the myref. I recently finished the myref fremen. And the low end is AMAZING. It's all there.....my jaw literally drops sometimes. So my experience is virtually the same as weskoki's experience.
And what I also found amazing is when the music becomes complex but also louder.....the amp just effortlessly steps up and treats it with the same finesse as softer easy music.
Basically I'm just in love with this myref fremen.
And what I also found amazing is when the music becomes complex but also louder.....the amp just effortlessly steps up and treats it with the same finesse as softer easy music.
Basically I'm just in love with this myref fremen.
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My experience runs 100% percent counter to the OP's thoughts/experience on the myref. I recently finished the myref fremen. And the low end is AMAZING. It's all there.....my jaw literally drops sometimes. So my experience is virtually the same as weskoki's experience.
And what I also found amazing is when the music becomes complex but also louder.....the amp just effortlessly steps up and treats it with the same finesse as softer easy music.
Basically I'm just in love with this myref fremen.
I have a similar experience with a standard myref_rev C built on a pair of Siva's 1.4 boards.
I recently gave up the idea of building my own speakers (SAF issues), and bought a pair of Q Acoustic 3050"s. Now that both the amp and speakers have had time to settle down, I am stunned by what this sub $1000 system can produce.
I don't think the use of the listener's ears to balance volume is a significant issue in this case ... after all, it is only one aspect of a relevant "double blind test". Do as some suggest, by setting output level via measurement, and you have only solved one issue. People could then justifiably complain that the next wasn't addressed, and so on.
This is a simple subjective assessment of different components. It should be taken as such and not nitpicked because of this or that. It has value, but it shouldn't be taken to mean it's the last word on the fidelity of the samples. Take it for what it is, not for what you wished it to be.
On another subject raised, my experience with audio suggests a somewhat different estimate of the Anthem's equivalent build cost. The assembled component BoM, boxed with all accessories included, ready for retail, is generally estimated to be about 20% of MSRP. So that would put the Anthem's raw cost without associated assembly labour, shipping, handling, distribution, advertising, and retail costs at about $300.00. And no, the retailer's portion is not +100%; he probably paid about $1000 to the distributor, modified up or down by certain business practices.
If the reseller runs a tight ship, he may have benefitted from an early payment discount of a few % (2, 3, 5 and 10% If paid within 10 days of shipping date are relatively common terms; the more expensive the component the more likely it's 2% versus 10), which comes out of the distributor's take; if his order was large, he may have received free shipping which again would come from the distributor's pocket; in contrast, if not a tight ship and/or a large order, he may have paid in 30 days with no discount, or took advantage of distributor financing under a "floor plan" price that adds an interest component over the time the unit sat in inventory, paying the invoice upon retail sale, and in all cases where the order was not large, the retailer paid a shipping charge.
This is a simple subjective assessment of different components. It should be taken as such and not nitpicked because of this or that. It has value, but it shouldn't be taken to mean it's the last word on the fidelity of the samples. Take it for what it is, not for what you wished it to be.
On another subject raised, my experience with audio suggests a somewhat different estimate of the Anthem's equivalent build cost. The assembled component BoM, boxed with all accessories included, ready for retail, is generally estimated to be about 20% of MSRP. So that would put the Anthem's raw cost without associated assembly labour, shipping, handling, distribution, advertising, and retail costs at about $300.00. And no, the retailer's portion is not +100%; he probably paid about $1000 to the distributor, modified up or down by certain business practices.
If the reseller runs a tight ship, he may have benefitted from an early payment discount of a few % (2, 3, 5 and 10% If paid within 10 days of shipping date are relatively common terms; the more expensive the component the more likely it's 2% versus 10), which comes out of the distributor's take; if his order was large, he may have received free shipping which again would come from the distributor's pocket; in contrast, if not a tight ship and/or a large order, he may have paid in 30 days with no discount, or took advantage of distributor financing under a "floor plan" price that adds an interest component over the time the unit sat in inventory, paying the invoice upon retail sale, and in all cases where the order was not large, the retailer paid a shipping charge.
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Hello,
Have my doubts about this comparison. In my experience different speakers need vastly different amounts of current. Some speakers are much easier to drive with low wattage. Seems too many variables to be sure of much anything other than with these speakers, it seems the high current amp does better.
IMHO,
Greg
Have my doubts about this comparison. In my experience different speakers need vastly different amounts of current. Some speakers are much easier to drive with low wattage. Seems too many variables to be sure of much anything other than with these speakers, it seems the high current amp does better.
IMHO,
Greg
depends on how loud you play it
im comparing a sony ta 707 vs my DHT 6b4g 15 WPC tube amp and theres no contest, the tube amp blows it out the window even with harbeth shl5+ speakers
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