Cliff, don't ask me. I have no idea of how or why, but I do know what my eyes and ears tell me. True, I tried that test myself with a DVD, not a classic CD which has been around much longer, and possibly has better copying software.
When using Nero software, copies of audio disks sound like you turned the treble tone control to +6 dB. Same it is not by a long shot. I suspect this is just one of the possible differences, the one I ran into, when copying a CD audio disk on my home PC and playing it back on my car's Sony radio/CD player.
OK.
"but I do know what my eyes an ears tell me!"
Good for you, but I can easily demonstrate in so many ways that what mine tell me is not to be trusted without examination.
If what you say is true, the whole of engineering and science is turned upside down. I am surprised you are not more curious.
"but I do know what my eyes an ears tell me!"
Good for you, but I can easily demonstrate in so many ways that what mine tell me is not to be trusted without examination.
If what you say is true, the whole of engineering and science is turned upside down. I am surprised you are not more curious.
Gentlemen, we can mince words no end and still not agree.
I suggested a simple test anyone can do at home. Do it, and then come back and tell me that the 5th copy of a copy is the same as the original. Theory is nice, but if it's not verified by practice (at some point), it's just a mental mastrubation.
I suggested a simple test anyone can do at home. Do it, and then come back and tell me that the 5th copy of a copy is the same as the original. Theory is nice, but if it's not verified by practice (at some point), it's just a mental mastrubation.
OK, just to humour you ....
I have just used 5 blank CDRs to daisy-chain a copy of one of my favourite and oft played disks: Strauss 4 last songs by Jessey Norman.
It is reasonable to assume that I know this work well.
Marking the CDs 1 to 5, I used my dual Plextor drives to do a E: to F: copy, so no special software or buffering or gimmicks.
1) All the disks look the same!
2) I played the same track from each at random and cannot hear any difference at all. Nor can my wife - but, to be fair, she doesn't like Strauss much!
3) I have just checked the checksums on all the tracks on all the disks, including the originals. They are all the same.
So, your point is?
May I carry on with my mental ****?
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RedBook standard includes a pre-emphasis option that could account for this
my understanding is that only very few, early CDs ever actually were produced with the pre-emphasis set
and few later copying SW takes the possibility of pre-emphasis into account given their rarity - SW not implementing the nearly obsolete pre-emphasis will lose the flag
the wav file from a pe-emphasized CD requires the de-emphasis curve EQ on playback
Only if you make an ISO image, any DVD software that decompresses and recompresses can lose quality. Audio CD's are not compressed and you have access to the data in a bit perfect fashion. Did you ever use a DVD player that reported the bit rate? If you do the math it's quite amazing how much decompressed data there is.
jcx - An audio industry insider told me that less than 10 titles used this bit, I have no way to confirm this (it would be funny).
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The 'pre-emphasis flag' explanation is just typical of engineers. I bet you found it in a datasheet, and your type always believes what he sees in datasheets. Next you will be telling us you can calculate exactly what effect it will have. This is the kind of nonsense which people have to resort to when they don't believe in pixies.
OK. Perhaps Colloms and Co. already tried this. But can they burn discs with the same material using the two modes and then compare them in a null check of the analog signal with two players? Clearly some fancy synchronization will be required.
I'm reminded of the players of silver discs that stripped off header information that was somehow jostling the DAC on playback, and claimed superior fidelity. Could there be something like this going on, so that although the files are identical, bit-for-bit, in the portions that are supposed to be reproduced on playback, there is some detritus that is not completely "ignored" by a given player?
Brad
There is ONE reason why it COULD sound different. He verified the bit check-sum on a PC drive, but he actually used for comparative listening another player.
Probably the player that he used to listen the discs is an old one not really ment to read CD-R and/or maybe it has with a worn laser. That player cannot read properly the CD-R discs (especially ones burned at maximum speed). Therefore it might loose a few bits on the CD-R disc, bits that get interpolated by the internal circuit and therefore the result will sound different.
If he would just use a modern CD/DVD-player, the audible differences would be zero.
Probably the player that he used to listen the discs is an old one not really ment to read CD-R and/or maybe it has with a worn laser. That player cannot read properly the CD-R discs (especially ones burned at maximum speed). Therefore it might loose a few bits on the CD-R disc, bits that get interpolated by the internal circuit and therefore the result will sound different.
If he would just use a modern CD/DVD-player, the audible differences would be zero.
Before this gets pulled off too far into fantasy land, the original claim was:
"Test that hypothesis by making a copy of the original. Then copy the copy to end up with 5 copies. You will easily see that the 5th copy is considerably less sharp and defined than the first copy.
This proves the point that despite what we are told, a copy is NOT exactly like the original. If you accept that, then it stands to reason that there may be people who actually can hear the difference between the original and a copy."
This is what I did. same PC. Just W7 OS software.
Whe he said "You will easily see that the 5th copy is considerably less sharp and defined than the first copy" that meant he HEARD that.
Most likelly on a different player than the PC drive that he did ripping and burning, since there is no mentioning of a sound card. A POS laser will do that...
Most likelly on a different player than the PC drive that he did ripping and burning, since there is no mentioning of a sound card. A POS laser will do that...
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