Hi, I am new here and am interested in trying some full range speakers. I am not sure what design is best suited for this type of speakers and I am limited to the size I can build by the WAF.
I am not that worried by limited bass initially as I mainly listed to classical guitar, violin and voice. Volume is also not a real problem as I have other speakers to annoy the neighbours.
I currently enjoy my old Rogers jr149 for their clarity etc and would like something similar but better and would like to make them myself.
I have an old Luxman amp but am also interested in trying the tube amps that are popular. I have an old valve guitar amp that everyone wants to borrow all the time and a valve amp for my hi fi would be great.
I would appreciate any advice re drivers and cabinet choices.
Thanks
Jeremy
I am not that worried by limited bass initially as I mainly listed to classical guitar, violin and voice. Volume is also not a real problem as I have other speakers to annoy the neighbours.
I currently enjoy my old Rogers jr149 for their clarity etc and would like something similar but better and would like to make them myself.
I have an old Luxman amp but am also interested in trying the tube amps that are popular. I have an old valve guitar amp that everyone wants to borrow all the time and a valve amp for my hi fi would be great.
I would appreciate any advice re drivers and cabinet choices.
Thanks
Jeremy
how about micro towers?
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/microTower-maps-150909.pdf
http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/microTower-maps-150909.pdf
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Best WAF is usually achieved with either* small or an elegant shape that isn't a monkey coffin.
*(hidden probably counts too, but it often compromises sonics and certainly gives no latitude for fine tuning thru placement)
Sometimes both can be achieved.
Frugel-Horn Mk3, Metronomes fall into the latter. microTower too, even thou still a rectangular box (an elegantly small square column) are both small and have the nice little eiffel tower (as in Mets) at the bottom.
Small, hard to beat the uFonken. And the uFonkenSET adds an elegant shape. And there are a Heinz 57 collection of others in that same family if you like the concept and need something with more (unaided) bass and can accomodate a bit bigger box.
Lots of other small boxes for a growing number of excellent small FR speakers. Most could be made to easily deviate from the standard monkey coffin by making top & bottom OR the sides trapezoids. More complex shapes with more work.
Adding interesting accents -- bevels, decorative insets, added wood trim, unusual finish (leather anyone?) -- usually add to the level of WAF.
Keep her in the loop. Show her the pictures. It is not like there aren't a lot of choices.
dave
*(hidden probably counts too, but it often compromises sonics and certainly gives no latitude for fine tuning thru placement)
Sometimes both can be achieved.
Frugel-Horn Mk3, Metronomes fall into the latter. microTower too, even thou still a rectangular box (an elegantly small square column) are both small and have the nice little eiffel tower (as in Mets) at the bottom.
Small, hard to beat the uFonken. And the uFonkenSET adds an elegant shape. And there are a Heinz 57 collection of others in that same family if you like the concept and need something with more (unaided) bass and can accomodate a bit bigger box.
Lots of other small boxes for a growing number of excellent small FR speakers. Most could be made to easily deviate from the standard monkey coffin by making top & bottom OR the sides trapezoids. More complex shapes with more work.
Adding interesting accents -- bevels, decorative insets, added wood trim, unusual finish (leather anyone?) -- usually add to the level of WAF.
Keep her in the loop. Show her the pictures. It is not like there aren't a lot of choices.
dave
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Thank you all for your suggestions so far. It is much appreciated.
I am not familiar with the output of full range drivers and my instinct has me asking if the Fe126 (a 4" driver) will be big enough to give me a full sound. I guess the WAF is an issue and does limit me but I must ask if I can get a much better sound from a bigger driver and cabinet. It is after all just another argument and a few days in the dog house if I ignore "she who must be obeyed".
Thanks
Jeremy
I am not familiar with the output of full range drivers and my instinct has me asking if the Fe126 (a 4" driver) will be big enough to give me a full sound. I guess the WAF is an issue and does limit me but I must ask if I can get a much better sound from a bigger driver and cabinet. It is after all just another argument and a few days in the dog house if I ignore "she who must be obeyed".
Thanks
Jeremy
4-5" drivers are, i believe, in FR speakers... others will disagree... they certainly can have the WAF.
To find out where you fall, you might have to try more than 1
Do a search for "i couldn't believe its only a 4"
These are a cheap place to start: CSS EL70 Full Range - PAIR
dave
To find out where you fall, you might have to try more than 1
Do a search for "i couldn't believe its only a 4"
These are a cheap place to start: CSS EL70 Full Range - PAIR
dave
For finish, how about wrapping them in a nice piece of fabric? I prefer felt:
-No pattern to align
-Little chance of glue seeping through due to thickness
-Good acoustic properties, IE damps HF surface interference, and panel vibration
-Comes in a number of nice colours and looks "furnitury"
-Cheap
Beware that the FH3 is very deep/sticks more into the room than alternatives.
The Fonken will probably need a sub unless it's a pretty small room and will only be optically smaller if put on a stand.
A BIB has a normal footprint but is very tall. But people rarely use corners for anything important, so if you can convince your GF/wife that it's only optical and that she will get used to it, go for those if you think you might need more bottom after all.
I'd suggest doing a TQWT, maybe mass loaded depending on the driver.
They are easy to make, takes up little space and are pretty forgiving to the beginner.
All while of course sounding very good if stuffed placed right.
-No pattern to align
-Little chance of glue seeping through due to thickness
-Good acoustic properties, IE damps HF surface interference, and panel vibration
-Comes in a number of nice colours and looks "furnitury"
-Cheap
Beware that the FH3 is very deep/sticks more into the room than alternatives.
The Fonken will probably need a sub unless it's a pretty small room and will only be optically smaller if put on a stand.
A BIB has a normal footprint but is very tall. But people rarely use corners for anything important, so if you can convince your GF/wife that it's only optical and that she will get used to it, go for those if you think you might need more bottom after all.
I'd suggest doing a TQWT, maybe mass loaded depending on the driver.
They are easy to make, takes up little space and are pretty forgiving to the beginner.
All while of course sounding very good if stuffed placed right.
FR speakers can give an experience which is suprising for their size if used in a good cabinet and placed properly. Full sound - if you mean 20-20kHz at high SPL, then no, FR units without assistance of helper woofers cannot do that. But through a reasonable band (more like 40s-20kHz) and at reasonable SPL, properly placed in the room FR speakers can be very rewarding. IIRC you mentioned acoustic music at the beginning of this thread, and FR 4-5" units are very good in this genre in my experience.
Say a Fostex FE126en in a cabinet like the Saburo will sound different vs used in a Fonken cab - both are good, but they will be different. I would say it's great for DIYers that there are so many designs and drivers to play around with based on ones personal taste of sound, preferred music genres, room type and WAF
. Even WAF can differ from person, though usually it's "smaller is better"!I am with Dave - you need to try out more than one build to see where you fall.
The BIB Squeak mentions is a simple build and once you get the stuffing right, it can sound very good. My first FR build was a BIB.
Take a look up the FR gallery - plenty of builds there - sure you can find a few that will pass the WAF test and sound good too!
Have fun!
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I'd steer you away from the FE 126en unless the higher sensitivity is really a must. I used the FE 127 and found it unrewarding - no bass and too bright sounding. I've read others who have found the FE 126 too bright sounding as well even if bass can be coaxed from it. The Mark Audio drivers appear to me a far better choice. I like the EL-70 driver which I have in an Onken style box. Depending on choice of tube amp (perhaps a 10W Push-pull), for the listening levels you described I don't see a problem with the lower sensitivity of the MA drivers.
If your prime 'need' is for high sensitivity for a tube amp for good bass and higher volume then it's hard not to end up with relatively large sized speakers because this is where the various compromises usually lead to.
p.s. another nice box to look at is the Pensil (popular with mark audio drivers) - it's less complex to build compared with FH3 and people report a great deal of satisfaction with the results.
If your prime 'need' is for high sensitivity for a tube amp for good bass and higher volume then it's hard not to end up with relatively large sized speakers because this is where the various compromises usually lead to.
p.s. another nice box to look at is the Pensil (popular with mark audio drivers) - it's less complex to build compared with FH3 and people report a great deal of satisfaction with the results.
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Bigun - I wouldn't discount the FE126E (now En) so quickly - there are literally hundreds of owners of a commercial speaker using both versions in a "sounds much bigger than it looks" BLH enclosure - i.e. Ed Schilling's Horn. As well, there are probably as many again DIYers employing them in a variety of horn and other enclosure types. Yes it definitely has some issues with bright /forward presentation in the upper midrange, and without appropriate enclosure design they can be a bit hard to take, but as a bang for the buck driver with a distinctive personality, they shouldn't be overlooked.
But since the subject of this thread is "WAF", something with which I'm as familiar as the relative merits of the 126 compared to say the Alpair7 or CSS EL70, the former's requirement for larger, although not necessarily more complex ( FH3 is much simpler build than a DIY version of the Hornshoppe might be) to deliver its full potential is certainly a factor. As few of us can likely predict with absolute certainly the AF in our own households, the recommendation for the OP to display the contents of some of the builders' photos would be as good a place to start as any.
That said, a vote for the Pensil 7.3 as a great sounding and very simple build - most of the finely tuned enclosure designs likely to be suggested here require strict adherence to dimensions, and may not be made to disappear, but many leave lots of room for aesthetics.
But since the subject of this thread is "WAF", something with which I'm as familiar as the relative merits of the 126 compared to say the Alpair7 or CSS EL70, the former's requirement for larger, although not necessarily more complex ( FH3 is much simpler build than a DIY version of the Hornshoppe might be) to deliver its full potential is certainly a factor. As few of us can likely predict with absolute certainly the AF in our own households, the recommendation for the OP to display the contents of some of the builders' photos would be as good a place to start as any.
That said, a vote for the Pensil 7.3 as a great sounding and very simple build - most of the finely tuned enclosure designs likely to be suggested here require strict adherence to dimensions, and may not be made to disappear, but many leave lots of room for aesthetics.
>>> Lots of other small boxes for a growing number of excellent small FR speakers...
That's great news!
I felt the 127e is on the bright side so I would not want the 126e (which i understand is even brighter... but i never heard it so cannot say for sure). But a 4" Fostex in a BIB provides a nice bottom and can be augmented with a small sub (which requires an additional box to go somewhere).
Currently i am working on a bookshelf design that will sit on my dresser for a while then on a bookshelf. In the room it's intended for, a bookshelf speaker is the best option when it comes to WAF. While determined to make it sound its best, i am not stressing over making it sound like any of the back horns or open baffle speakers i've come to love. When it comes to WAF i think you need to examine the room before choosing the speaker design. If you have a room dedicated to listening and WAF is not a factor, you can be more ambitious with your speakers.
I'd consider one of the 4" Fostex, Alpair, TB, etc. in a small box with a hidden sub for high WAF and good sound. It won't sound like a back horn or an open baffle with a pair of 15" woofers... but it will sound good and could be made to look very appealing.
That's great news!
I felt the 127e is on the bright side so I would not want the 126e (which i understand is even brighter... but i never heard it so cannot say for sure). But a 4" Fostex in a BIB provides a nice bottom and can be augmented with a small sub (which requires an additional box to go somewhere).
Currently i am working on a bookshelf design that will sit on my dresser for a while then on a bookshelf. In the room it's intended for, a bookshelf speaker is the best option when it comes to WAF. While determined to make it sound its best, i am not stressing over making it sound like any of the back horns or open baffle speakers i've come to love. When it comes to WAF i think you need to examine the room before choosing the speaker design. If you have a room dedicated to listening and WAF is not a factor, you can be more ambitious with your speakers.
I'd consider one of the 4" Fostex, Alpair, TB, etc. in a small box with a hidden sub for high WAF and good sound. It won't sound like a back horn or an open baffle with a pair of 15" woofers... but it will sound good and could be made to look very appealing.
Bigun & Jeff,
I'm surprised by the too bright/no bass comment about the FE127e. I have a pair in Fonken Primes. Now I admit that I have BSC on them too, and w/o the BSC I wouldn't much care for them.
I find my Fonkens stupid good-- not just for the money, but by any reasonable measure. I have a sub connected with them, but rarely bother to turn it on, as it's XO is set at 40 Hz and for much of the music I listen to, it doesn't add anything.
Cheers, Jim
I'm surprised by the too bright/no bass comment about the FE127e. I have a pair in Fonken Primes. Now I admit that I have BSC on them too, and w/o the BSC I wouldn't much care for them.
I find my Fonkens stupid good-- not just for the money, but by any reasonable measure. I have a sub connected with them, but rarely bother to turn it on, as it's XO is set at 40 Hz and for much of the music I listen to, it doesn't add anything.
Cheers, Jim
Thanks again for all info.
Currently I am leaning towards the Alpair 10.2 in a ClassicGR-MarKen10g2 cabinet.
One thing that does concern me about these plans is the statement re the central brace --- "It is centrally mounted on the driver magnet". This sounds like and the images look like the driver magnet is actually touching/resting on this brace. Am I correct? and if so several questions arise - Will this vibrate and rattle and is any form of glue used to inhibit any rattling or is it just a tight fit.
Decent woodworking is not a problem, I make guitars for a living and I guess the images of solid wood used for these speakers is what attracted me. I also figure that if they sound Ok I can use a sub if needed and if the WAF is good then I will build a bigger set of speakers and create another HT system.
I presume that using real wood instead of MDF or ply will color the sound to some degree and this degree will vary depending on the timber used. I have a lot of Goncalo Alves (no idea what you call it in the US) so I used the botanical name and it is fairly "dead" acoustically so I will probably use that.
Any advice re the Alpair 10.2 (gold) drivers are like in these cabinets are again welcome.
Thanks
Jeremy
Currently I am leaning towards the Alpair 10.2 in a ClassicGR-MarKen10g2 cabinet.
One thing that does concern me about these plans is the statement re the central brace --- "It is centrally mounted on the driver magnet". This sounds like and the images look like the driver magnet is actually touching/resting on this brace. Am I correct? and if so several questions arise - Will this vibrate and rattle and is any form of glue used to inhibit any rattling or is it just a tight fit.
Decent woodworking is not a problem, I make guitars for a living and I guess the images of solid wood used for these speakers is what attracted me. I also figure that if they sound Ok I can use a sub if needed and if the WAF is good then I will build a bigger set of speakers and create another HT system.
I presume that using real wood instead of MDF or ply will color the sound to some degree and this degree will vary depending on the timber used. I have a lot of Goncalo Alves (no idea what you call it in the US) so I used the botanical name and it is fairly "dead" acoustically so I will probably use that.
Any advice re the Alpair 10.2 (gold) drivers are like in these cabinets are again welcome.
Thanks
Jeremy
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I found BSC was detrimental to the sound and for me it takes away from the concept of nothing between the amp and the driver. In the end I concluded that the 4" fostex units are simply not the sound that I like; YMMV. I still have two pairs of the FE127 so maybe one day I'll give it another go.
As for WAF, I suspect that the quality of the finished product has a large bearing on this. If they scream "look ma what I made in the garage" then I can guarantee that no matter how small they are, they're not getting the stamp of approval ! On the other hand, if they look like fine furniture, you have a fighting chance.
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No one has mentioned grilles that I have seen. I wouldn't be without them and I have tall bibs. With a plain front, they blend. The grilles can be made a number of ways, but for tall and thin there's a system of aluminum (variety of colors) channel used for screen doors with fabric instead of screen material. Add a set of magnets and any speaker front (which all most anyone will look at or see) has a very simple and discreet look. The channel is framed with some matching right angle inserts. Available at the hardware store for the channel and any fabric store for the cloth.
Then you can let your imagination run wild with a single driver speaker design.
Then you can let your imagination run wild with a single driver speaker design.
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Joined 2009
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I keep a few images of speakers on my hard drive when looking for ideas, some DIY and some commercial, covering OB's, floorstanders, bookshelf and horns. I just asked the misus to look through and see if there was anything of merit.
I'm afraid that 99.9% of the list was rejected out of hand
Seems that they need to be smaller and/or slimmer, these were the only words that I heard regarding acceptable traits - except one which was 'cute' and I've attached an image of it
I'm afraid that 99.9% of the list was rejected out of hand
Seems that they need to be smaller and/or slimmer, these were the only words that I heard regarding acceptable traits - except one which was 'cute' and I've attached an image of it
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