Thanks for your advice. My listening room is small & I will not have a chance to set it to ear splitting level.
CMIMW but I understand in that sense that T2 will work harder than T1 to drive 6 ohm load. Nobody likes stressed amp so the relaxed T2 could sound better.
But the T1 (100watt model) has STA510 which is said to be better (higher damping factor among others) than STA508 or STA505 on T2. I don't remember where I read that. But I'm getting confuse now, pls give this newbie some more considerations.
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T1 vs T2
Well... in reality most "8 ohm" speakers have DCR closer to 6 ohms and actual impedance in the 7 ohm range, and if you are going to be listening in a small room like that, either amp should do just fine.
At that point just go for the one that sounds the best in your system, no way to determine that from other's opinions or spec sheets.
But these amps are very inexpensive... buy one of each, keep the one you like and sell the other on e-bay....
or.... keep it and then you can bi-amp your speakers!
After years of designing passive crossovers, I've discovered the joys of active crossovers via DSP engines. A great system for this is the Behringer DCX2496 with a modification to connect directly to the outputs of the DAC (with coupling caps or a 1:1 transformer) which gives a huge transformation of the sound, from barely acceptable to fantastically resolved.
Give it a try. And let us know which amp you like better.
Well... in reality most "8 ohm" speakers have DCR closer to 6 ohms and actual impedance in the 7 ohm range, and if you are going to be listening in a small room like that, either amp should do just fine.
At that point just go for the one that sounds the best in your system, no way to determine that from other's opinions or spec sheets.
But these amps are very inexpensive... buy one of each, keep the one you like and sell the other on e-bay....
or.... keep it and then you can bi-amp your speakers!
After years of designing passive crossovers, I've discovered the joys of active crossovers via DSP engines. A great system for this is the Behringer DCX2496 with a modification to connect directly to the outputs of the DAC (with coupling caps or a 1:1 transformer) which gives a huge transformation of the sound, from barely acceptable to fantastically resolved.
Give it a try. And let us know which amp you like better.
I can understand your point of view. But most audiophiles including me are really inhibited to enter into this new techniqal possibilities. It seems against the obligation of purity when there are more and more gears integrated into an audio chain.
I heard from another audio lover who uses a behringer active crossover (which model I don´t know) about the possibilities to change the sound character like you wish. Of course they are using linear class AB amps and regarding Tripath they close their ears and are (especially in conservative germany) very resistent to this chip amps. The common main reasons are like:
"too much distortion", "sounded in mid frequencies" , "not linear" or "bad measurement values". But heyy ... I myself gave class D at least a chance and did never regret this new discovery (at least the Tripaths).
Using a good classic CD Player it makes less sense to switch to an DCX2496 imho, but with another sources and formats the results could be very enjoyable ...
Hi Jack,
Thanks again for another very helpful and informative post. I'd like to carry on the discussion of the crossovers further but think it's off topic for this thread. I have started a new thread here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...96-minidsp-active-crossovers.html#post2551953
Hope some of you will join in the discussion there.
Cheers,
Rod
Audio purity...
I previously held the same opinion about the Behringer gear, because their analog sections sound so bad... but then, I listened to the DEQ2496 in digital in/digital out and was shocked by the transparency...
so then I had my most GoldenEared friends over and they could't detect when the Behringer was in the loop and eq's set to flat...
so... disbelieving what he was hearing, the most critical and Golden Eared among them asked me to bring the DEQ to his house so he could listen on his super-system. And we did... and at his place he did notice a very small difference...
what really got him though was that the system sounded BETTER with the Behringer in the loop!
In answer to "how can this be?", it's probable that the impedance matching between the Behringer and his DAC was better than from his (very expensive) audiophile transport.Prior to this he was intensely critical of Toslink (as are many), but he came away with a different viewpoint. Now he's feeling a little disturbed...
So while I greatly respect the "purist" approach and apply it when possible, sometimes more is better. I bet my friends system would greatly benefit from the use of a Burson buffer or similar.
And your own experiences with class D have shown you that commonly held audiophile opinions are often just that...opinions!
AND, it gets better! When you do the direct DAC out mod on the Behringer units, the analog sound is stunningly good, better than many "super-dacs" including the Benchmark! Among about 8 other DACS I've heard, the only DAC that I've heard that is significantly better is the Antelope Audio Zodiac Gold...so even if you don't use the eq functions, you still get a great DAC... pretty good deal!
I previously held the same opinion about the Behringer gear, because their analog sections sound so bad... but then, I listened to the DEQ2496 in digital in/digital out and was shocked by the transparency...
so then I had my most GoldenEared friends over and they could't detect when the Behringer was in the loop and eq's set to flat...
so... disbelieving what he was hearing, the most critical and Golden Eared among them asked me to bring the DEQ to his house so he could listen on his super-system. And we did... and at his place he did notice a very small difference...
what really got him though was that the system sounded BETTER with the Behringer in the loop!
In answer to "how can this be?", it's probable that the impedance matching between the Behringer and his DAC was better than from his (very expensive) audiophile transport.Prior to this he was intensely critical of Toslink (as are many), but he came away with a different viewpoint. Now he's feeling a little disturbed...
So while I greatly respect the "purist" approach and apply it when possible, sometimes more is better. I bet my friends system would greatly benefit from the use of a Burson buffer or similar.
And your own experiences with class D have shown you that commonly held audiophile opinions are often just that...opinions!
AND, it gets better! When you do the direct DAC out mod on the Behringer units, the analog sound is stunningly good, better than many "super-dacs" including the Benchmark! Among about 8 other DACS I've heard, the only DAC that I've heard that is significantly better is the Antelope Audio Zodiac Gold...so even if you don't use the eq functions, you still get a great DAC... pretty good deal!
Audio purity...
I previously held the same opinion about the Behringer gear, because their analog sections sound so bad... but then, I listened to the DEQ2496 in digital in/digital out and was shocked by the transparency...
so then I had my most GoldenEared friends over and they could't detect when the Behringer was in the loop and eq's set to flat...
so... disbelieving what he was hearing, the most critical and Golden Eared among them asked me to bring the DEQ to his house so he could listen on his super-system. And we did... and at his place he did notice a very small difference...
what really got him though was that the system sounded BETTER with the Behringer in the loop!
In answer to "how can this be?", it's probable that the impedance matching between the Behringer and his DAC was better than from his (very expensive) audiophile transport.Prior to this he was intensely critical of Toslink (as are many), but he came away with a different viewpoint. Now he's feeling a little disturbed...
So while I greatly respect the "purist" approach and apply it when possible, sometimes more is better. I bet my friends system would greatly benefit from the use of a Burson buffer or similar.
And your own experiences with class D have shown you that commonly held audiophile opinions are often just that...opinions!
AND, it gets better! When you do the direct DAC out mod on the Behringer units, the analog sound is stunningly good, better than many "super-dacs" including the Benchmark! Among about 8 other DACS I've heard, the only DAC that I've heard that is significantly better is the Antelope Audio Zodiac Gold...so even if you don't use the eq functions, you still get a great DAC... pretty good deal!
I previously held the same opinion about the Behringer gear, because their analog sections sound so bad... but then, I listened to the DEQ2496 in digital in/digital out and was shocked by the transparency...
so then I had my most GoldenEared friends over and they could't detect when the Behringer was in the loop and eq's set to flat...
so... disbelieving what he was hearing, the most critical and Golden Eared among them asked me to bring the DEQ to his house so he could listen on his super-system. And we did... and at his place he did notice a very small difference...
what really got him though was that the system sounded BETTER with the Behringer in the loop!
In answer to "how can this be?", it's probable that the impedance matching between the Behringer and his DAC was better than from his (very expensive) audiophile transport.Prior to this he was intensely critical of Toslink (as are many), but he came away with a different viewpoint. Now he's feeling a little disturbed...
So while I greatly respect the "purist" approach and apply it when possible, sometimes more is better. I bet my friends system would greatly benefit from the use of a Burson buffer or similar.
And your own experiences with class D have shown you that commonly held audiophile opinions are often just that...opinions!
AND, it gets better! When you do the direct DAC out mod on the Behringer units, the analog sound is stunningly good, better than many "super-dacs" including the Benchmark! Among about 8 other DACS I've heard, the only DAC that I've heard that is significantly better is the Antelope Audio Zodiac Gold...so even if you don't use the eq functions, you still get a great DAC... pretty good deal!
I have monica 3 and i thought the the output impedance is less than 100 R because there is a B1 style buffer at the output. The 4 2sk 170 around the trimmer is the buffer.
I use it with the lightspeed clone that requires low output impedance and it works very well.
please post your findings as to the matching in SQ. I am lurking around with regard to the class d amp.
regards
kp93300
Try 41Hz
I think Helder might be, and the 41Hz amps almost surely have them as they originate in Europe. Check them at 41Hz.com
Their prices for assembled amp boards don't look too bad at all, and their layouts are supposedly very good, so there is good potential for them to sound very good with the right caps and parts and power supplies.
I previously passed on the 41Hz amps because they were smd kits only but now they have some pre-assembled boards and some through hole kits that look very interesting and well thought out.
I think Helder might be, and the 41Hz amps almost surely have them as they originate in Europe. Check them at 41Hz.com
Their prices for assembled amp boards don't look too bad at all, and their layouts are supposedly very good, so there is good potential for them to sound very good with the right caps and parts and power supplies.
I previously passed on the 41Hz amps because they were smd kits only but now they have some pre-assembled boards and some through hole kits that look very interesting and well thought out.
Thank Jack for the info, I'll have a look. Maybe I write a direct email to them with a direct question. The assembled 41Hz modules are currently unavailable and my soldering skills not too refined.
Will keep you updated.
Hi all,
I'm just at the stage of shipping some components across the world to make my own set of speakers using Monacor drivers (actually Tony Gee's LBS speakers). I'm looking at using a Hifimediy T2 2x100W@4ohms with the Meanwell S-350-27 27V SMPS switching power supply to do the amplification.
My question is I've noted that there are 2 versions of that T2, one with a 4700 uf capacitor and a second with a 10,000 uf capacitor - in a roundabout sort of way, the Hifimediy site said that the 10,000 uf one was recommended for a transformer or the SMPS, and I assume that 4700 for a SMPS only.
Although I dont anticipate using a transformer, since the 10,000 uf one was a mere $1 more, I was thinking of buying that one anyway to give more flexibility.
But is there any performance penalty in getting that extra capacitance?
Thanks all!
I'm just at the stage of shipping some components across the world to make my own set of speakers using Monacor drivers (actually Tony Gee's LBS speakers). I'm looking at using a Hifimediy T2 2x100W@4ohms with the Meanwell S-350-27 27V SMPS switching power supply to do the amplification.
My question is I've noted that there are 2 versions of that T2, one with a 4700 uf capacitor and a second with a 10,000 uf capacitor - in a roundabout sort of way, the Hifimediy site said that the 10,000 uf one was recommended for a transformer or the SMPS, and I assume that 4700 for a SMPS only.
Although I dont anticipate using a transformer, since the 10,000 uf one was a mere $1 more, I was thinking of buying that one anyway to give more flexibility.
But is there any performance penalty in getting that extra capacitance?
Thanks all!
It's a plus
4700 vs 10,000uF? No penalty, unless vastly different grades of capacitor are being used. If they're the same grade, bigger will almost always sound better.
As point of comparison, Virtue uses a 27,000uF onboard cap and premium input and filter caps, and clearly sound better than the other Tripath implementations I have heard so far.
I would get the 10,000uF version and add a high quality bypass cap to it, with the idea of maybe adding another 30,000uF. That onboard capacitance gives more peak current when it is needed, and this is one area where the theoretical or calculated max current required does not seem to match up with the subjective experience... when it comes to reserve caps it almost always seems like bigger is better... I won't say always, but in my experience so far, it hasn't yet happened that more capacitance sounded worse.
4700 vs 10,000uF? No penalty, unless vastly different grades of capacitor are being used. If they're the same grade, bigger will almost always sound better.
As point of comparison, Virtue uses a 27,000uF onboard cap and premium input and filter caps, and clearly sound better than the other Tripath implementations I have heard so far.
I would get the 10,000uF version and add a high quality bypass cap to it, with the idea of maybe adding another 30,000uF. That onboard capacitance gives more peak current when it is needed, and this is one area where the theoretical or calculated max current required does not seem to match up with the subjective experience... when it comes to reserve caps it almost always seems like bigger is better... I won't say always, but in my experience so far, it hasn't yet happened that more capacitance sounded worse.
SMPS start up
There is some conjecture about start surge issues causing SMPS to get stuck in current limit mode if the caps are too big but I haven't read anyone saying that it actually happend.
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There is some conjecture about start surge issues causing SMPS to get stuck in current limit mode if the caps are too big but I haven't read anyone saying that it actually happend.
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Hey Scott, since you've worked so much with the Meanwell supplies, have you tried adding much larger onboard caps?
I've only tried this with high current batteries and the Black Lightning LFP supplies from RedWine Audio have a built-in soft-start which prevents current inrush problems, but it would be good to get your input on this, as I suspect more people will lean toward the smps solution.
Surprisingly, even with these LFP batteries which have HUGE instant peak current capabilities which go waay beyond the smps, the larger onboard caps still make an improvement... wish we could still get those Blackgate caps at reasonable prices.
Has anyone here found any electrolytics of similar subjective quality to the now discontinued Blackgates? Elna or Nichicon perhaps?
!0,000
I added 10,00uf Panasonic TSHN along with a foil bypass to the 3600 that the 2X100 comes with and my MeanWell starts up fine. I haven't done a careful A/B listening comparison since but just judging from the before and after, if there was any difference to the sound it would be very slight. SMPS don't seem to need big caps.
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I added 10,00uf Panasonic TSHN along with a foil bypass to the 3600 that the 2X100 comes with and my MeanWell starts up fine. I haven't done a careful A/B listening comparison since but just judging from the before and after, if there was any difference to the sound it would be very slight. SMPS don't seem to need big caps.
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Thanks for the answer and even better...an explanation for why the cap is there in the first place!
I had a look at the Virtue (amazing how many of these TK2050 come out of the woodwork - they are well hidden from the average man in the street) but since I'm just a fledgling builder, I just can't go past the price of the Hifimediy one at this stage. I still find it hard to believe that these amps exist... I was virtually resigned to having to hand over >1K for a receiver with a million options that I didnt want or need.
Later on, if I can pull of a stereo build, I'll build some more and make a 5.1 HT system. At that point I might get the Virtue for the stereo speakers and use the Hifimediy for the surround speakers... or replace it all together... <speculates wildly>
"the bigger power cap the better" is true with linear supply. Not with SMPS.
Big caps are useles with SMPS. Too big caps can harm.
Vitueone comes with huge power caps and ridiculous smps (65W/24V). What is the logic here ?
An A/B comparison of vitueone and a hifimediy T1 + meanwell shows a clear winner, for a fraction of the price
Big caps are useles with SMPS. Too big caps can harm.
Vitueone comes with huge power caps and ridiculous smps (65W/24V). What is the logic here ?
An A/B comparison of vitueone and a hifimediy T1 + meanwell shows a clear winner, for a fraction of the price
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