Is high-end audio just lots of gimmicks and high price tags ??

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frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
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Are you being funny?

You are gonna have a fit over these:

AE-FE126eN-2-900.jpg


Not the colour but the spots :D

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dave
 
Actually I make my speakers, don't buy them :)

My understanding is that speakers typically have THD from about 10% for good ones to 25% for "average", and higher yet for poor quality. I don't know of any speakers that get anywhere near 1%.

Speakers having such a high level of distortion is a big part why I'm confident that 0.1% THD in active components is not audible (dwarfed by the speaker distortion).

Tannoy actually stated distortion figures of <0.5% for some of their speakers.
 
As my contribution to this debate, I point you to the writeup on a guy who will pay $10k for anyone who can completely reliably tell the difference between ANY two amplifiers by just listening. He has still not found anyone to give his money to.

Richard Clark Amplifier Challenge FAQ

This doesn't mean that there aren't audible amplifer differences, but it does mean that they are not easy to hear.

This "test" sounds more like urban legend than reality. If "thousands" of people have taken part in the test, then someone must know someone who took part in the test or someone on this forum may have taken part in it?
Anyone want to fess up?

Not meaning to sound like a w@nker, but I can hear the difference between different power amps. Actually I can also hear the difference between different interconnects and sources. Actually I would guess that most people on this forum would make the same claim too.

The interconnects I'm talking about have been home made by myself experimenting with different wires, the cost is negligible so I'm not blinded by the cost or "brand" or fancy case. Even if there is a "measurable" reason for the difference, I can perceive it, and that's all that matters to me.

I do however believe that perceived differences of sound between similar powered amps or similar sized speakers can be quite subtle, and not the massive night and day differences that some make them out to be.
One mans massive difference may be another mans minor difference. It all comes down to how we personally rate sound. One person may rate the "dynamics" of a system higher than tonality and subtlety and vice versa.

The frequency response of both systems may measure similarly the same, but favoured by one and not the other based on their personal preference.

I also believe that our personal preference changes over time. Some piece of equipment we once loved becomes junk when we find something we like better. I say we like, because its about liking it, not about it sounding better. Its about liking it better for whatever reason.

One man prefers big speakers, another prefers small, another prefers open baffle, one prefers electrostatic. All will argue to the death that one is better than the other. All they are really saying is that they like theirs more.

Personal sonic preference is as much a factor as measurements.

Another thing to note is that we are not all looking for the same thing when it comes to sound. Some are clearly after something they call "accurate" and others are after something they call "musical" or "emotionally involving" sometimes the two come very close to each other and other times are miles apart.

Having said this, I still enjoy a good review, a good audio discussion, and a new piece of audio gear.:)
 
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Not meaning to sound like a w@nker, but I can hear the difference between different power amps. Actually I can also hear the difference between different interconnects and sources. Actually I would guess that most people on this forum would make the same claim too.

Yes, most probably would. However, none of them (including you) have done it level matched with no peeking.
 
I'll say it again and again.

If you can hear the difference and like the improvement in sound then spend your money.

The biggest improvment that I ever heard was changing my speaker cables. I used to use 50A twin core. Even moving onto 2.5mm UK mains ring cable made a massive improvment. I was talking to a Hi-Fi dealer only last week and the 2.5mm Ring Main Cable, although ungainly, is difficult to supass, especially when you vector in the cost.

Interconnects alos do make a difference but some suppliers charge ridiculous amounts with ridiculous claims.

Satellite Co-Ax makes a very good interconnect when used with decent RCA plugs.

If you can't hear the difference then either your equipment is at its limits or your ears are at theirs.
 
Speaking for myself only I have heard differences between amps.
But with the exception of truly bad amps (a very early transistor job and an Arcam Alpha 8 come to mind) they are very subtle and only audible when switching instantly between them.
I have never heard differences between suitable cables, be they ICs, speaker or power.
 
I find the main factors that are audible with transistor amps are a lack of power and DF.
With all amps I heard distortion is well below audibility except that ancient one I referred to, that just went bad after half an hour.
Oddly enough my current amps start sounding a wee bit better after a 30 minute warm-up.
I would not go back to anything below 200Wrms (8 Ohm) or passive speakers because going active with oodles of power has made the biggest improvement of everything I have ever tried.
 
AVE...

Are you being funny?
Parity bits, checksum bytes, checksum frames, and transmission rates 20-30 times higher than DAC conversion speed. And ACK/NACK signaling...

The USB audio standard is not the same as Block mode data transfer. There is timing of the data stream and clock information to retrieve from the audio data. The correctness of this retreived clock is critical. Not so for regular data.

In otherwords, your DAC ain't a hard-drive.
 
I've found the best improvment with Class A amps and good quality speaker interconnects.

The DIY Audio A700 is a VAST improvement over my old Arcam AVR280 even after spending £400 on having the Arcam upgraded.

Never used pure class a amps.
The ones I am using now are class a/b bipolars but I had a word with one of the two designers and he said that it is unlikely that in a domestic setting they'd ever leave class a operation. They certainly do get quite warm at idle or low levels.
The Arcam Alpha 8 I used to own was quite badly built (I had it fixed 3x under warranty, apparently a design fault but the general built was nothing to be proud of either) and 'mushy' sounding with bloated bass.
 
AVE...
The USB audio standard is not the same as Block mode data transfer. There is timing of the data stream and clock information to retrieve from the audio data. The correctness of this retreived clock is critical. Not so for regular data.

In otherwords, your DAC ain't a hard-drive.
Isochronous transfer mode uses CRC. Even if there is no ACK/NACK signaling, DAC can ignore corrupted data blocks. Also don't forget about physical specification: half-duplex differential transmission over twisted pair, all of this inside shielded cable with some ferrite beads. I hope your DAC is not 5 meters from your PC? Cheap cable will have the same performance, as that Diamond USB overpriced crap...
 
AVE...

Isochronous transfer mode uses CRC. Even if there is no ACK/NACK signaling, DAC can ignore corrupted data blocks. Also don't forget about physical specification: half-duplex differential transmission over twisted pair, all of this inside shielded cable with some ferrite beads. I hope your DAC is not 5 meters from your PC? Cheap cable will have the same performance, as that Diamond USB overpriced crap...

And when the DAC does ignore the blocks, you get clicks/dropouts.
 
The one and only
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The ones I am using now are class a/b bipolars but I had a word with one of the two designers and he said that it is unlikely that in a domestic setting they'd ever leave class a operation. They certainly do get quite warm at idle or low levels.

They all say that. My rule of thumb is take the total
wattage rating (both channels) and multiply it by 2.5.
This would be the likely draw of a pure Class A amplifier.

Example: 2 channels at 200 watts each gives 1000 watts.

Then take the ratio of the actual idle draw of the amp
in watts, divide it by the 1000 watts and square that
number.

As an example, a 200 watt idle is a pretty toasty value.

Example for an stereo amplifier rated at 200 watts/ch
with a 200 watt idle: (200/1000)^2 = .04

Multiply that number by the rated wattage of a channel:
.04 * 200 = 8 watts - this is the probable Class A figure
for the amplifier. The peak value will be twice that figure,
so for audio I would say that such an amplifier will leave
Class A at 16 watts peak.

I leave it to you to decide if your amplifier is operating
Class A in your listening situation.

:cool:
 
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Bit perfect and jitter are two different notions.

They are indeed - and this has been discussed elsewhere. Still, the M-Audio card I used to record SPDIF must have a receiver of some kind to pick up the SPDIF signal. Likely it turns SPDIF into I2S then into USB, or something similar. If the jitter had been bad enough to trip up the clock recovery, then I would have expected at least some error, maybe a bit or two. But nothing.

Maybe not all DACs can do as good a job at clock recovery. Maybe it does not matter in the SPDIF to USB conversion. I don't know.

And when the DAC does ignore the blocks, you get clicks/dropouts.

Yes, I've had that happen on USB and SPDIF with bad cables, ground loops and noise. Even digital isn't always perfect. ;)
 
I also have my own placebo effect.

Bought an old sony TA-N7B V-fet poweramp. Did not connect it yet, i want to check a few things first. For the rest i agree whit al you guys here, since i am into to DIY i really see what it takes to have the sound you like for the music you like. I enjoy it and it is costing me less money.

regards
 
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