bekki
Careful there, or you will upset the "bits are bits" Brigade !
I bet if you compare the checksums from the HDD and the Flash Drive, that they are the same too ! Many people have also stated that SSD sounds better than HDD also, with exactly the same .wav files.
SandyK
SandyK! Don't care about "the "bits are bits" Brigade", sometimes good to remind, that bit-to-bit perfectionism is only part of sound quality
! The other parts are: low jitter, low level of interference and who knows what else...Hi, Erin!
I use the WD TV mini , and it sounds really good
Hi Bekki,
You could be right about the USB controller in the HDD being the culprit? I still find it to be a mystery why USB flash drives sound better. I speculate that perhaps the power draw of the disk spinning and head moving may cause ripple and noise on the power supply, but how this affects the transfer of data, and subsequently the sound, is a mystery to me.
Perhaps Thorsten has some suggestions why this happens and how to solve this problem?
It is certainly an issue which requires some solving with HDD media players being the transport of the future.
" I still find it to be a mystery why USB flash drives sound better.
I speculate that perhaps the power draw of the disk spinning and head moving may cause ripple and noise on the power supply... Erin."
Erin
I think you are spot on. This also applies to the PC itself, where even turning off Pulse Width Modulated fans (not the CPU Fan!)
can result in a better sounding rip to the USB Flash Drive. In the case of the Intel 965LTCK motherboard, the front fan (at least) is pulsed at around 10 pulses per second when the PC is relatively cool.
I believe that this pulsing is reflected through the rest of the power supply to some extent.
Perhaps even to the 14.318MHZ Master Oscillator, despite local regulation ?
SandyK
I speculate that perhaps the power draw of the disk spinning and head moving may cause ripple and noise on the power supply... Erin."
Erin
I think you are spot on. This also applies to the PC itself, where even turning off Pulse Width Modulated fans (not the CPU Fan!)
can result in a better sounding rip to the USB Flash Drive. In the case of the Intel 965LTCK motherboard, the front fan (at least) is pulsed at around 10 pulses per second when the PC is relatively cool.
I believe that this pulsing is reflected through the rest of the power supply to some extent.
Perhaps even to the 14.318MHZ Master Oscillator, despite local regulation ?
SandyK
Erin
Pray that the price of SSD drops substantially in the near future ?
BTW, I have even found that .wav files on the Corsair when converted to .flac files sound noticeably less clean sounding than the original .wav files when played by the WD TV Live. I think this may be due to increased processor load in the WD TV Live, and the resulting higher power demands when converting them again for playback ?
SandyK
Hi,
I cannot claim to KNOW why it makes differences, but I really do not know a lot. I do have suspicions though.
First I think we need to make an ex-cathedra pronouncement. I present the Bitperfect axiom:
IF the data stream is truly bit-perfect (eg there is no alteration of re-calculation of any form) and
IF the DAC converting the data-stream operates in a deterministic manner (meaning the precise output from a given data input is reliably repeatable within limits of precision that are better than the signal being transmitted requires) and
IF no noise currents and other non-signal related currents (and/or Voltages) except pure direct pass from the digital domain into the analogue domain
THEN the only variable that can affect sound quality is the timing of the conversion of the data, or to with what is called Jitter.
Of course, just like distortion and noise the audible impact of jitter correlates poorly with single dimensional quantification, that is a single figure of merit number (like 3000ps vs. 1000ps vs. 300ps).
Sources of jitter vary widely and as little as a few mV ground bounce somewhere twixt DAC and clock can make a measurable and audible difference in the audio output.
If we consider this axiom true (which it must be, or it would not be an axiom) the rest follows simply and naturally.
We know that modern Hard drives, CPU's etc. exhibit power supply modulations depending on what they are doing (and thus return current in the ground plane) if using common power supplies. They also vary RFI emissions with load. The supply rail modulation may also be passed to the clock responsible for the Computers timing and so on.
In many ways this is no different to the problems how overcome jitter in CD-Players.
Yup. Using a full PC (or Mac) the problem is of course already solved.
Ciao T
I cannot claim to KNOW why it makes differences, but I really do not know a lot. I do have suspicions though.
First I think we need to make an ex-cathedra pronouncement. I present the Bitperfect axiom:
IF the data stream is truly bit-perfect (eg there is no alteration of re-calculation of any form) and
IF the DAC converting the data-stream operates in a deterministic manner (meaning the precise output from a given data input is reliably repeatable within limits of precision that are better than the signal being transmitted requires) and
IF no noise currents and other non-signal related currents (and/or Voltages) except pure direct pass from the digital domain into the analogue domain
THEN the only variable that can affect sound quality is the timing of the conversion of the data, or to with what is called Jitter.
Of course, just like distortion and noise the audible impact of jitter correlates poorly with single dimensional quantification, that is a single figure of merit number (like 3000ps vs. 1000ps vs. 300ps).
Sources of jitter vary widely and as little as a few mV ground bounce somewhere twixt DAC and clock can make a measurable and audible difference in the audio output.
If we consider this axiom true (which it must be, or it would not be an axiom) the rest follows simply and naturally.
We know that modern Hard drives, CPU's etc. exhibit power supply modulations depending on what they are doing (and thus return current in the ground plane) if using common power supplies. They also vary RFI emissions with load. The supply rail modulation may also be passed to the clock responsible for the Computers timing and so on.
In many ways this is no different to the problems how overcome jitter in CD-Players.
Yup. Using a full PC (or Mac) the problem is of course already solved.
Ciao T
sorry thornsten, but anyone who says macs dont have bit perfect output available, really is just being lazy, forgetting you can run multiple platforms, or looking for a reaction. you can run bit perfect audio from amarra mini, amarra, from Foobar via cocoa and as was mentioned, puremusic and thats just native in OSX. osx also has a native unix terminal, so you can run pretty much any linux program on it, or any windows program on intel macs. in fact macs are the ONLY computer that allow you to run any operating system or software you want.
anyway yeah back on topic, I use my ipad to control my rig via VNC and apple remote, feeding either i2s from an M2TECH OEM board to the ackodac or buffalo II, or also AES and BNC from a modified RME HDSP9632. the ipad makes for the absolute best remote ever.
on a not so high end note, I also run USB audio direct from the ipad and use an adum usb isolator to feed clean power to the receiver. ;limited to 48khz, but still pretty cool for with my portable dac and headphone amp for movies and such when traveling. the screen is one of the best I have ever seen on a portable device and hopefully it wont be too long before higher bitrates are supported as the camera kit actually puts out USB2 AFAIK
anyway yeah back on topic, I use my ipad to control my rig via VNC and apple remote, feeding either i2s from an M2TECH OEM board to the ackodac or buffalo II, or also AES and BNC from a modified RME HDSP9632. the ipad makes for the absolute best remote ever.
on a not so high end note, I also run USB audio direct from the ipad and use an adum usb isolator to feed clean power to the receiver. ;limited to 48khz, but still pretty cool for with my portable dac and headphone amp for movies and such when traveling. the screen is one of the best I have ever seen on a portable device and hopefully it wont be too long before higher bitrates are supported as the camera kit actually puts out USB2 AFAIK
Hi qusp,
And anyone who does not bother getting the name right when addressing other is just plain rude.
My point about Mac/iTunes is that there is no grantee of bitperfect audio, just as there is non when using the standard windows soundsystem (aka. KMixer under XP). An no system prioritises the highest quality audio stream, but instead the first audio-stream.
Amarra and Pure Music are very recent developments and I would not consider them stable at all, with new major revisions every fortnight.
That is not entirely true, is it now? It does not even run older Mac Software designed for the PPC platform well, if at all.
I have been thinking the same. Until I had it stolen recently my 5" screen Windows Phone could do the same job well, but the funny thing almost everyone in the household (including guests) routinely uses the MCE remote and finds that very easy. While I can control my Media PC via VNC easily from ton's of devices, this is almost never used, unless I need to drop back to windows to do some file system stuff or maintenance.
How do you bypass the need for an Apple Authentication chip? Or do you work somewhere that has a MFI Licence?
Ciao T
And anyone who does not bother getting the name right when addressing other is just plain rude.
My point about Mac/iTunes is that there is no grantee of bitperfect audio, just as there is non when using the standard windows soundsystem (aka. KMixer under XP). An no system prioritises the highest quality audio stream, but instead the first audio-stream.
Amarra and Pure Music are very recent developments and I would not consider them stable at all, with new major revisions every fortnight.
That is not entirely true, is it now? It does not even run older Mac Software designed for the PPC platform well, if at all.
I have been thinking the same. Until I had it stolen recently my 5" screen Windows Phone could do the same job well, but the funny thing almost everyone in the household (including guests) routinely uses the MCE remote and finds that very easy. While I can control my Media PC via VNC easily from ton's of devices, this is almost never used, unless I need to drop back to windows to do some file system stuff or maintenance.
How do you bypass the need for an Apple Authentication chip? Or do you work somewhere that has a MFI Licence?
Ciao T
sorry I came back and noticed it and went to edit your user name and it was past 30 mins. please accept my apology it was a typo, I struggle with multiple typos in most posts I make from my weird crab-like typing style. I try to type faster than I actually can :redface: which results in me having to edit most posts, but sometimes one falls through the cracks
hehe touche, indeed running some older software is a bit precarious. but I run plenty of older plugins for logic without issue and really anyone who decided to upgrade from an older mac knew the risks; I certainly did and have no regrets. lets not even go there with windows running older software. amarra wasnt the main thing I was mentioning, but rather just what I typed first, I was mainly pointing to others like foobar which has been ported for a while now, and has been able to run in emulation of course for ages. and to mention amarra mini, which although too rich for my blood when there is other options is still much cheaper than the full license.
yeah I love the ipad remote, I only bought the wifi only version pretty much specifically for this purpose. its great for movies too of course and i'm only just scratching the surface, just need to update my iphone so I can tether without jailbreaking. its about the fastest and most fluid OS I have used on any computer, its really responsive and kinda disappears. it has its problems of course, but for my purposes its excellent. I just hope someone involved in the ackodac project gets around to porting the glass cockpit for the MCU to ipad. until then i'll just run VNC
for digital output you have to use the camera connection kit whether by design or not, it has exposed digital audio output via USB. It doesnt work with everything, if the device needs to draw too much power from the bus for the receiver or whole dac, it rejects the accessory and tells you its not supported. generally any USB fullspeed codec (1.X) device like the 270X series recievers will work just fine if its low power, or if it has its own power source. to bypass this limitation, although I dont use bus powered stuff much; I used the USB isolator and splice in my own power for any device that doesnt have its own power source. not the best audio going, but with good clean power and a nice dac, perfectly useable for portable.
I assume it was put there for video cameras or simply an oversight, but I made sure to stock up on a few in case they made a mistake and hardwired usb cables onto them. theyve run out of stock several times, so is selling well and they must know about it, hopefully their partners that make ipod digital transports dont kick up too much of a stink.
hehe touche, indeed running some older software is a bit precarious. but I run plenty of older plugins for logic without issue and really anyone who decided to upgrade from an older mac knew the risks; I certainly did and have no regrets. lets not even go there with windows running older software. amarra wasnt the main thing I was mentioning, but rather just what I typed first, I was mainly pointing to others like foobar which has been ported for a while now, and has been able to run in emulation of course for ages. and to mention amarra mini, which although too rich for my blood when there is other options is still much cheaper than the full license.
yeah I love the ipad remote, I only bought the wifi only version pretty much specifically for this purpose. its great for movies too of course and i'm only just scratching the surface, just need to update my iphone so I can tether without jailbreaking. its about the fastest and most fluid OS I have used on any computer, its really responsive and kinda disappears. it has its problems of course, but for my purposes its excellent. I just hope someone involved in the ackodac project gets around to porting the glass cockpit for the MCU to ipad. until then i'll just run VNC
for digital output you have to use the camera connection kit whether by design or not, it has exposed digital audio output via USB. It doesnt work with everything, if the device needs to draw too much power from the bus for the receiver or whole dac, it rejects the accessory and tells you its not supported. generally any USB fullspeed codec (1.X) device like the 270X series recievers will work just fine if its low power, or if it has its own power source. to bypass this limitation, although I dont use bus powered stuff much; I used the USB isolator and splice in my own power for any device that doesnt have its own power source. not the best audio going, but with good clean power and a nice dac, perfectly useable for portable.
I assume it was put there for video cameras or simply an oversight, but I made sure to stock up on a few in case they made a mistake and hardwired usb cables onto them. theyve run out of stock several times, so is selling well and they must know about it, hopefully their partners that make ipod digital transports dont kick up too much of a stink.
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Hi Peter,
Thank you. This is quite useful.
We are an official Apple partner and so I know the Pukka way of getting digital outputs from the apple stuff. It would seem the camera kit includes the apple authentication chip.
Ciao T
Thank you. This is quite useful.
We are an official Apple partner and so I know the Pukka way of getting digital outputs from the apple stuff. It would seem the camera kit includes the apple authentication chip.
Ciao T
Hi,
Accepted, don't worry, I don't mind really, I was just quipping back
I'm just plain lysdexic...
Let's do, actually. I am running several pieces of pretty ancient software and even under Win 7 I can get it to run perfectly with minimal effort. Never touched Vista, so no idea there, Vista was worse than Win 95 and that was a disaster.
Well, I also could use one of the many iSomething eval kits that hang about at work... ;-)
Still, this will be good for many of our existing products, so I know there will be many happy users/dealers.
I don't suppose this Cam Kit does work with iPod Touch/iPhone though, does it?
Ciao T
Accepted, don't worry, I don't mind really, I was just quipping back
I'm just plain lysdexic...
Let's do, actually. I am running several pieces of pretty ancient software and even under Win 7 I can get it to run perfectly with minimal effort. Never touched Vista, so no idea there, Vista was worse than Win 95 and that was a disaster.
Well, I also could use one of the many iSomething eval kits that hang about at work... ;-)
Still, this will be good for many of our existing products, so I know there will be many happy users/dealers.
I don't suppose this Cam Kit does work with iPod Touch/iPhone though, does it?
Ciao T
Hi,
Accepted, don't worry, I don't mind really, I was just quipping back
thought you might be, but all the same not something I would have let go if i'd noticed.oot me
yeah I have another mac for anything really old. up till the intel change I was running stuff from a decade ago without issue. I dont really think its a flaw, when totally changing architecture I can see catering for people that havent upgraded for many years isnt high on the agenda. I and anyone who took the leap knew what they were getting into. vista is case in point, I had my entire digital media final assessment jeopardized by that piece of crap.
i'm sure you could. there are a couple of newish portable devices like the Cypher labs Algorythm Solo that pulls async USB audio from all the idevices. The Camera kit will do for my purposes, the solo is a bit large IMO and not DIY enough for my tastes
my portable rig is large enough without adding another boxunfortunately no it doesnt
even though the iphone v4 uses the same chipset as ipad it doesnt work with the camera kit. either because the iphone already has a camera, because it only has limited battery life, or for other commercial and legal issues perhaps. one day they are going to give up the piracy fight and realize that those that are going to buy music/movies will and those that arent, wont..... no matter what you do. over at Head-fi we were very much hoping the iphone v4 would work since they announced it using the same chip, but were disappointed. doesnt matter, my main portable headphone audio I use a coax modified iriver feeding the portable sabre anyway; the remote makes the whole thing more useable for portable, and for transportable i'll use the ipad anyway..
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Taking the above into consideration, how does the PC manage to output good SPDIF or i2s?
Thorsten, do you think that the usb isolator will fix the sound quaility problems with the HDD connected to the WD mini?
This device is meant to deal with the issues above..
Would you be able to elaborate on your above comment?
You seem to think my PC source was not very good, so perhaps you could share your exact recipe for good PC sound?
Thanks
Erin
Hi,
By ensuring minimal variation in CPU Load during playback, well implemented power supplies, separately powered discrete clocks for the audio section and so on.
Ideally using an Asynchronous sound device (one whose clock is not recovered from the PC).
It may improve some aspects, but it will not improve others.
Sure. Asynchronous USB or Firewire Audio.
Preferably with some form of isolation on the I2S bus to the DAC.
Preferably with the clocks on the isolated side and send to the USB Audio device via isolators.
Preferably with competently implemented multiple power supplies that make sure ground loops are avoided.
I have recently shared what I used here. But this "exact" recipe is outdated.
Ciao T
By ensuring minimal variation in CPU Load during playback, well implemented power supplies, separately powered discrete clocks for the audio section and so on.
Ideally using an Asynchronous sound device (one whose clock is not recovered from the PC).
It may improve some aspects, but it will not improve others.
Sure. Asynchronous USB or Firewire Audio.
Preferably with some form of isolation on the I2S bus to the DAC.
Preferably with the clocks on the isolated side and send to the USB Audio device via isolators.
Preferably with competently implemented multiple power supplies that make sure ground loops are avoided.
I have recently shared what I used here. But this "exact" recipe is outdated.
Ciao T
John
Wash your mouth out with soap !
Squeezebox and Audiophile are mutually exclusive, despite what many may think. A Squeezebox has major advantages if you just want to sit your bum on a couch and push a button to access your entire musical collection, but it can't come even remotely close to a high quality DAC in the SQ department.
Alex
Hi Erin
My answer would still be the same.
I have heard Squeezeboxes via SPDIF into a good DAC , and also a Marantz SA11 into the same DAC, and the Squeezebox is way behind in SQ, with a much poorer soundstage,especially regarding a 3D type presentation on good material.
I do realise however, that the Squeezeboxes are capable of marked improvement with appropiate modifications though.
Even then, the ones I have heard after modification still aren't as good.
It's rather like expecting a cheap DVD player using an SMPS to sound as good as a high quality CD/DVD player when used as a transport using SPDIF.
Of course many members here will insist that provided internal error correction is working properly, then they MUST sound the same !
Alex
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