Mumbo-Jumbo and power supply caps

[Zen Mod]

let say - considering that I'm talking ZMEngrish - propagation time of energy transient is different for these two cases ( without and with decent bypass)

 

[Wavebourn]

let say - considering that I'm talking ZMEngrish - propagation time of energy transient is different for these two cases ( without and with decent bypass)

It would be measurable.

I still believe, it is non-linear capacitance.

 

[Zen Mod]

It would be measurable.

.......

I didn't say it wouldn't be ; but - when , if we are talking about things you can't measure now ; propagation time - meaning different phase through freq. spectrum

.....

I still believe, it is non-linear capacitance.

I meant the same - non-linear capacitance , complex impedance , whatever

 

[Wavebourn]

That means, we agreed.

Now; do we need to hunt for that ghosts inventing new measurements, or it is enough to know that they exist, relax, and bypass electrolytics routinely?

 

[Zen Mod]

this world is functional (is it ? ) amongst other things ,exactly because of many engineering patches ;

engineer doesn't understand some phenomenon thoroughly , but cure/solution is known from praxis ;

I can't see anything wrong in that - we are already short in time to enjoy in many things , same as - to understand much more important things than imperfections of electrolytic caps ......

 

[SGregory]

To be contrary to the "let it be, fix it and move on" crowd. Can it be measured? How about a simple qualatative test with a scope in x-y mode? comparing output vs power supply voltage ot current?

 

[Wavebourn]

To be contrary to the "let it be, fix it and move on" crowd. Can it be measured? How about a simple qualatative test with a scope in x-y mode? comparing output vs power supply voltage ot current?

John Curl about an year ago promised that somebody will reveal soon some test that is based on measurement procedures that were used before in video... I still did not hear about that anything new.

 

[analog_sa]

or it is enough to know that they exist, relax, and bypass electrolytics routinely?

Are we in a time machine? Is it 1980 again? So, where the hell is all my hair?


Or is the tube forum naturally delayed in time?


Routinely bypassing has not worked out well, at least not for me. Some caps respond well to being bypassed, others do not. The bypassing recipe often seems to be based on a very confused recipe too. Any amount of science would greatly help.

 

[Rod Coleman]

Are we in a time machine? Is it 1980 again? So, where the hell is all my hair?


Or is the tube forum naturally delayed in time?


Routinely bypassing has not worked out well, at least not for me. Some caps respond well to being bypassed, others do not. The bypassing recipe often seems to be based on a very confused recipe too. Any amount of science would greatly help.

Bypassing routinely doesn't work for me either. A lot depends on the make of cap.

I find it better to just eliminate the electrolytic from the actual anode current path. A 30uF Ampohm FP-CA-30-AU works for me. Connect it as the last cap in an LCLC. That way, you can have a large-value electrolytic after the first L
without it affecting the high-frequency audio.

Polypropylene Capacitors

AMPOHM WOUND PRODUCTS|FP-CA-30-AU|AUDIO CAPACITOR, 30UF, 630V | Farnell United Kingdom

 

[Wavebourn]

Are we in a time machine? Is it 1980 again? So, where the hell is all my hair?

I have no idea where is your hair, but I've found that electrolytics are not bad at all, they don't need to be replaced by batteries of motor run or other audiophoolery caps; and bypassing is not needed for high frequency response, but for minimizing non-linear capacitance effects. I wish non-linearities of tubes could be minimized similarly, by bypassing of fat powerful tubes by smaller ones.

 

[Wavebourn]

I find it better to just eliminate the electrolytic from the actual anode current path. A 30uF Ampohm FP-CA-30-AU works for me. Connect it as the last cap in an LCLC. That way, you can have a large-value electrolytic after the first L
without it affecting the high-frequency audio.

You did not read the topic, did not you?

I find it better just to bypass electrolytics by polypropylene caps, without needs for heavy and expensive inductors. And it has nothing to do with "affecting the high-frequency audio".

 

[Rod Coleman]

You did not read the topic, did not you?

I find it better just to bypass electrolytics by polypropylene caps, without needs for heavy and expensive inductors. And it has nothing to do with "affecting the high-frequency audio".

I don't think you read my answer properly

I would prefer to leave out the inductors too. Trouble is, the sound is not good enough, when electrolytics are used. Bypassing may work for some designers, or some listeners, but I think that using LCLC gives MUCH better sound.

Electrolytics sound bad. And, they get worse as they get older. They also sound bad if you don't power them up regularly (problems of 'forming'). Bypassing does not fix these faults!

Now, you accept that the electrolytic has 'nonlinear capacitance', or some other fault, why not fix the fault? Bypassing is a sticking-plaster, not a cure.

 

[M Gregg]

Hi Rod,

Quote:
Now you accept that the electrolytic has 'nonlinear capacitance', or some other fault.

You know what DF96 will say! A capacitor is a linear device.
I am still open to suggestions on this one!

I find that you can make a cocktail of bypassing. The trouble is that it tends to be biased to; one type of ambience within a recording. Even Quad in the late 70's had a circuit board " input filter" that could be pulled out of the back of the unit. You could turn this around and put it back in four orientations for rock, soul, classical etc.

Perhaps we should have a type of EQ that fits across the supply. LOL.
We are back to does it exist if you can't measure it. I would like to think that Wavebourn will find a way to do this! However I believe there are things in this hobby that fall within the dark art of alchemy and they do make a difference.


You know there must be information on this linked to surround sound and spatial positioning! OK it won't say about caps in PSU's, however it will say if it is frequency or time shift of frequency. That smears the image!


Regards
M. Gregg

 

[Francec]

"Yes Anatoliy, you will certainly get no argument from me on the extreme capability of the human senses!"
The "capability of human senses" is the reason why double blind experiments are conducted in medical research. This thread has happened very quickly, therefore, I ask everyone to take a deep breath, think on it for a couple of days and think it through a bit more thoroughly. There is a touch of magical thinking happening.

Frank

 

[analog_sa]

I have no idea where is your hair

Easy for YOU to be smug

and bypassing is not needed for high frequency response, but for minimizing non-linear capacitance effects

Ehm, where did you read that? It is just another theory and being yours you seem to like it a lot. All we know is that you tried some mumbo-jumbo in desperation and liked what it did for the sound.

Had you used different (better?) caps in the first place, the outcome could have been quite different.

 

[20to20]

Speaking of mumbo-jumbo...

Yesterday I found unexplainable fact. I was working on a tweaking of a power amp prototype. The amp was perfectly tuned and aligned. Better selection of tubes, better regimes, better distortion profile... But the sound was less real!

According to experiments, monaural perceptibility is more than 10 milliseconds, while binaural perceptibility is 10 micro(!)seconds.
I can't find better explanation, because amplitude-related measurements show nothing

Not sue what you mean here. 10 ms = 100hz. What do you mean by ''perceptability" ?

10us = 100Khz. Not going to hear anything that changes that fast. No reverb in the world works with those kinds of freqs.

 

[analog_sa]

10us = 100Khz. Not going to hear anything that changes that fast.

It is directional angle, or localisation. Nothing to do with hearing anything fast.

 

[20to20]

It is directional angle, or localisation. Nothing to do with hearing anything fast.

I think the theory of imaging is based on delay to each ear and amplitude created by seperation of the sources. Since the speed of sound is 1100 ft/s. how much distance does a delay of 20Khz represent? 1/20 of a foot. .5in. Would that be a ''perceptible" delay?

Edit on the math. Even less than first figured.

 

[20to20]

You are sitting in the dark listening to your stereo and your head moves forward by 1/2''. Did you sense that the music source was closer?

Or you are sitting in the dark at a concert 20ft away from two singers. One moves 1/2'' closer to you or to each other. Did you detect that?

Since our directionality of hearing is based on changes of amplitude to each ear, like adjusting the balance control, how much change in output from channel to channel (ear to ear) Db wise, is necessary to create a perceptible shift. I'd say thet difference is easily seen on a scope.

 

[M Gregg]

Just on reflection!

A car battery is a type of capacitor, OK it contains lead! If you ask the local "boy Racer" he will tell you he has bypassed his car battery with a huge **farad capacitor because it makes his car stereo "sound better"! When you ask how he says it releases the energy faster for the transients in the music!

Remember the sound stage can also be created with headphone use!

Might not be related, just thought I would mention it!

Regards
M. Gregg