Stuart, I agree, the 'good sounding' cable is not the best example possible. 'Good sounding' is not a well defined parameter, and that makes the example weak. But I assume that you agree that the purpose of the 'scientific method' is to try to find a 'truth' that is universally applicable (with overwhelming probability, at least
).jd
I wasn't comparing human minds with apples. I was making another point, which is clear I think.
jd
Stuart, I agree, the 'good sounding' cable is not the best example possible. 'Good sounding' is not a well defined parameter, and that makes the example weak. But I assume that you agree that the purpose of the 'scientific method' is to try to find a 'truth' that is universally applicable (with overwhelming probability, at least
jd
That should be the goal, but that relies on the ability of any experimentor to question his own beliefs. If the self-reflection is low, the probability to get useful results is quite low too.
Wishes
Of course. If you never question your own beliefs you probably don't do a lot of experiments.
jd
Of course. If you never question your own beliefs you probably don't do a lot of experiments.
jd
It unfortunately doesn´t depend on the number of experiments. As shown especially in blind listening tests, experimenters tend to repeat simply the same errors just due to low self-reflection ability.
Wishes
Yeah, you got a point there. One would probably tend to do the experiments that affirm one's belief....
What a mess
jd
I think it's maybe a little close minded that those who view themselves as being on the side of science hold so strictly to the DBT and only to the DBT.
The situation with cables is that literally tens of thousands of audiophiles and music lovers DO believe they can hear differences. This is far too large a group to simply dismiss as people who are merely "Faith" based. (an incredibly insulting statement if I may say so.) It is also far too large a group to pass off as people who are easily deceived by snake oil peddlers and salesmen.
The cables most often in question are often very expensive. And short of the trust fund nitwit who is capable of buying these things simply becuase he can, I have observed that it is most often people who have made their money in part because they are NOT easily deceived.
Further, I have witnessed that when it comes to cables, the dealer usually REMOVES himself from the equation to the extent that they will send a variety of examples home and allow the client to decide for himself. This is not always the case, to be sure, but I believe to be the rule more than the exception. It has been my experience, and I have visited many high end stores, that the environment is NOT that of a Best Buy or Tweeter. In those places it is the rule that some minimum waged twenty-something kid is able to ** his way to a sale by selling fluff to an otherwise uneducated buyer. This is simply not the case in the high end.
Still further is the fact that when audiophiles seek to describe the performance of specific cables they most often come within tiny semantics in their descriptions. In other words, hundreds of people who have never met each other will arrive at the same conclusions when trying to describe the characteristics of a particular cable. The similarities as well as the sheer number that arrive at the same conclusions is worthy of attention.
For these reasons, and many others, I think the true spirit of science would not be demeaning and belittling the "Faith" based crowd but instead searching for reasons in the apparent disconnect between the remarkably similar experiences of tens of thousands of listeners and the apparent breakdown in DBT testing.
I'm no electrical engineer. But I am a scientist and I can tell you this is the only place where I have seen such a fervent adherence to one particular testing method. In physiology we have recognized for a very long time that what we often predict is NOT possible in the lab is often proved possible in the real world. The fact that athletic world records continue to fall is simple evidence.
To simply dismiss so many people you dont even know and to assign to them a level of stupidity (be honest, thats whats really being said in these arguments) that flies in the face of other evidence is NOT scientific. Its simply the opposing religion.
The situation with cables is that literally tens of thousands of audiophiles and music lovers DO believe they can hear differences. This is far too large a group to simply dismiss as people who are merely "Faith" based. (an incredibly insulting statement if I may say so.) It is also far too large a group to pass off as people who are easily deceived by snake oil peddlers and salesmen.
The cables most often in question are often very expensive. And short of the trust fund nitwit who is capable of buying these things simply becuase he can, I have observed that it is most often people who have made their money in part because they are NOT easily deceived.
Further, I have witnessed that when it comes to cables, the dealer usually REMOVES himself from the equation to the extent that they will send a variety of examples home and allow the client to decide for himself. This is not always the case, to be sure, but I believe to be the rule more than the exception. It has been my experience, and I have visited many high end stores, that the environment is NOT that of a Best Buy or Tweeter. In those places it is the rule that some minimum waged twenty-something kid is able to ** his way to a sale by selling fluff to an otherwise uneducated buyer. This is simply not the case in the high end.
Still further is the fact that when audiophiles seek to describe the performance of specific cables they most often come within tiny semantics in their descriptions. In other words, hundreds of people who have never met each other will arrive at the same conclusions when trying to describe the characteristics of a particular cable. The similarities as well as the sheer number that arrive at the same conclusions is worthy of attention.
For these reasons, and many others, I think the true spirit of science would not be demeaning and belittling the "Faith" based crowd but instead searching for reasons in the apparent disconnect between the remarkably similar experiences of tens of thousands of listeners and the apparent breakdown in DBT testing.
I'm no electrical engineer. But I am a scientist and I can tell you this is the only place where I have seen such a fervent adherence to one particular testing method. In physiology we have recognized for a very long time that what we often predict is NOT possible in the lab is often proved possible in the real world. The fact that athletic world records continue to fall is simple evidence.
To simply dismiss so many people you dont even know and to assign to them a level of stupidity (be honest, thats whats really being said in these arguments) that flies in the face of other evidence is NOT scientific. Its simply the opposing religion.
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Yeah, you got a point there. One would probably tend to do the experiments that affirm one's belief....
What a mess
jd
Well, that´s not the point.
Own beliefs work well as a basis for the development of working hypotheis, but they must not influence the result of a test.
But if you don´t put your beliefs to test than you will not be able to adjust the test designs.
Wishes
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Reality is not up for a vote. By this standard, Sylvia Browne talks to the dead, astrologers predict your future, homeopathy works, magnetic insoles cure foot disease, and L. Ron Hubbard was selling the real history of space aliens.
Sorry, if you don't have evidence, it's faith, whether or not you like the word.
is there really anyone who has experienced sleight of hand or stage magic in person - and can still claim they "trust their senses"
large numbers of believers is also no argument for the validity of magical thought systems, from playing lucky numbers in lotteries to extremes like the 10s of thousands executed in Europe for witchcraft - in "legal" proceedings with rules of evidence, eyewitness testimony, ect. with widespread public support – it is clear that humans are wired to accept belief systems with little reference to objective reality
large numbers of believers is also no argument for the validity of magical thought systems, from playing lucky numbers in lotteries to extremes like the 10s of thousands executed in Europe for witchcraft - in "legal" proceedings with rules of evidence, eyewitness testimony, ect. with widespread public support – it is clear that humans are wired to accept belief systems with little reference to objective reality
Did I present anything as evidence? No. What I presented was consitent and repeatable observations, the quantity of which should command attention in the eyes of any real scientist. Enough, certainly, to create curiosity.
But your continued condescending tone it noted. Especially in light of the fact that you didnt actually read my post with much conprehension.
Or for those who don't want to wait around for many universe lifetimes, just drop an apple while standing on your head. Et voila! Zee apple, she falls up.
se
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