No need, the cables are coded. All he has to do (now that JC has run away) is sort them into two piles and tell us which cables are in which pile.
Fcd
Hi tvrgeek
Agreed, the final test signal doesn't show up with infinite derivatives. That's physically impossible. I just wanted to point out that this signal is NOT a pure sine wave (as you called it). Also the results are difficult to interpret because of the high order frequency content at the abrupt start and ending of such a 'sine wave'.
BTW, do you remember Graham Maynard and his measurements of the 'First Cycle Distortion' (FCD)? Not to mention his article in EW+WW (over 50 pages of endless whining) that almost ruined that once-respected magazine?
See also: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/32758-first-cycle-distortion-graham-what.html
C. E.
/OT off
/OT on
Hi tvrgeek
Agreed, the final test signal doesn't show up with infinite derivatives. That's physically impossible. I just wanted to point out that this signal is NOT a pure sine wave (as you called it). Also the results are difficult to interpret because of the high order frequency content at the abrupt start and ending of such a 'sine wave'.
BTW, do you remember Graham Maynard and his measurements of the 'First Cycle Distortion' (FCD)? Not to mention his article in EW+WW (over 50 pages of endless whining) that almost ruined that once-respected magazine?
See also: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/32758-first-cycle-distortion-graham-what.html
C. E.
/OT off
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You mean that flexible 'record'? I have the original somewhere but no means to play it. I can sent it to you.
jd
I think it is important that all cables are of the same type and cannot be distinguished visually. That, in my opinion, also rules out that the claimant does the burn-in. I do see the advantage here, but there's always the chance that they WILL be distinguisable afterwards to whoever did the burn-in, accidental or otherwise.
One option could be that the claimant appoints the burner-in, so he can be confident that it is done as he thinks it should be done, but that it is done physically separately from the claimant.
jd
The Carver Challenge was done in 1985 using these speakers:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
12 x woofers
14 x midrange drivers
8 x tweeters (3 front + 1 rear-firing per side)
4 x crossovers (125Hz, 750Hz, 3kHz, and 8kHz)
biamping (mandatory for these speakers)
extra electronics in the signal path
PLEASE NOTE: I am not being critical of multi-way systems in general.
However, for the speakers above:
1. Is it possible that subtle audible differences between the amplifiers might have been rendered inaudible by the time they reached the listeners ears? I think so.
2. Would the result change if they used single fullrange driver speakers? We'll never know.
My point is that multiple driver speakers and extra electronics in the signal path might mask subtle audible differences from cable burn-in (assuming they exist and are audible).
With a single fullrange driver speakers:
- point source, phase coherent
- high sensitivity (easily 96dB/Watt and above eg. Fostex, Lowther)
- minimal electronics in the signal path (source - pre-amp? - amplifier - speaker)
- nothing between amplifier and driver other than the speaker cables under test.*
Perhaps Andre might like to comment on this?
Cheers,
Alex
* except maybe a simple switch box - no level matching is required because the speaker cables are identical in all ways - except for burn-in.
Do you guys never sit down and listen to just the music ?
I find you have to live with a component/mod etc for a long time to be really sure and to be able to say "yea, that set up delivers the goods consistently" and having done so find the need to keep swapping stuff isn't there.
It sounds to me that despite all the wonderful designs/technical specs etc of some of the amps etc you guys have and design they must be missing that vital "something" that makes you want to just enjoy the music.
Just an observation... that's all
I find you have to live with a component/mod etc for a long time to be really sure and to be able to say "yea, that set up delivers the goods consistently" and having done so find the need to keep swapping stuff isn't there.
It sounds to me that despite all the wonderful designs/technical specs etc of some of the amps etc you guys have and design they must be missing that vital "something" that makes you want to just enjoy the music.
Just an observation... that's all
Music is what it's all about for me.
But I'm always interested in exploring new ideas that can increase my listening pleasure.
Cheers,
Alex
First post:
Last post:
Nothing was proven. And when confronted by a real chance to collaborate on a real test....BYE BYE (LOL!).
I loved this thread. Amusing as *****
Last post:
Nothing was proven. And when confronted by a real chance to collaborate on a real test....BYE BYE (LOL!).
I loved this thread. Amusing as *****
Good, I was getting worried when some started a group buy discussion already.
That would not be my choice, multiple midranges and tweeters just don't make sense to me. I've only listened once to an old set of Lowther FR speakers, they were not to my liking, I like the idea but I'm not convinced (yet?) that one driver can do everything well. I'm using 2.5 way TL speakers.
Not only visually, also by weight.
C. E.
Well if I don't burn them in, nothing of that matter, I can even do the cable swapping myself.
With posts like yours and bluekitty, I can understand why John doesn’t want anything to do with the testing, we have nothing to gain from it but criticism and insults.
This is completely wrong! Do you grasp what this is about??
What you, and John, have to gain is being the first to show conclusively that burn-in causes audible differences. Can you actually imagine the concept? No more insults. People will talk about you for the next 30 years!
jd
Why? He can either tell the difference, on his own system with or without friends to help using the methods he claims work, or he can't. The mind-clouding SY vibes will be 2000 miles away.
Running away is a sure path to criticisms; doing the sorting correctly is the surest path to proving his point. Unless he knows, in his heart of hearts, he can't do it.
Multi-way speaker systems are bread and butter for Stereophile so it's logical for them to use 'top-rated' multi-ways in their reviews.
As I said before, I'm not attacking multi-way systems.
However, if the question is whether it is possible for a human to hear certain subtle audible differences (like cable burn-in), IMO, single fullrange driver speakers and minimal electronics are better suited for reasons I mentioned earlier.
I'm not aware of any objective (ie. yes/no) audible difference testing using single fullrange driver speakers. Have you come across any?
You are right - fullrange speakers don't do everything well. But in the context of detecting audible differences they can offer significant advantages.
I've not heard Lowthers, but from all accounts they are very good at revealing subtle differences - so long as your ears don't bleed in the process.
Cheers,
Alex
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