Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Free speaker wire shootout - cat6 vs romex
Make sure the 20 or 50% more of cable lenght run impedance is not more than the ~5% difference between caps, inductors and resistors of the (2) xovers.
(by the way, that (black) cable with jacks for the guitar speakers are way better and about the same price, than the twin pair sold in hifi shops and supermarkets. /Inside the speakers I try to use a better one)
Sheldon said:
Make sure the 20 or 50% more of cable lenght run impedance is not more than the ~5% difference between caps, inductors and resistors of the (2) xovers.
(by the way, that (black) cable with jacks for the guitar speakers are way better and about the same price, than the twin pair sold in hifi shops and supermarkets. /Inside the speakers I try to use a better one)
CAT6 (and CAT3 and CAT5) is 4 pairs of 24AWG, so one CAT6 cable with all 8 conductors joined is 15AWG total (which is how I interpret how you're effectively using it - at least as far as thickness goes). What gauge Romex are you comparing against?wicked1 said:It's actually 2 cat 6 cables, so 8 pair.
It was inexpensive cable, and I don't know what the insulation is. So to further clarify, w/ these brands of cable (inexpensive cat6 from newegg, and romex from Lowes) on my system, the romex wins
The cat 6 is doubled, 8 pair, 16 wires, so double 15awg thickness. Oh, but then I guess divide by 2 as there is positive and negative, so yeah, 15awg.
15 amp wire is `14 awg, and 20 amp is 12 guage. The initial test was done w/ 12 guage, but I just threw in a long section of 15 amp wire (14 guage solid core) and it sounds about the same as the 12 guage.
I put the twisted pair back on, and yeah, noticeable difference. Less lows, and highs aren't quite as clear.
I mentioned in the first post that I joined all the solids and joined the stripes stripes, and maybe that is bad. Having the signal split into 8 different pairs as it goes down the run. I dont know.. Just posting my results.
Also, again, as I mentioned in the first post, this is a low power SET w/ high efficiency full range speakers, which means NO crossover. Also, maybe high efficiency speakers show the subtle differences more than something that needs more power to move.
I was honestly very surprised at the difference, or I wouldn't have started this thread.
15 amp wire is `14 awg, and 20 amp is 12 guage. The initial test was done w/ 12 guage, but I just threw in a long section of 15 amp wire (14 guage solid core) and it sounds about the same as the 12 guage.
I put the twisted pair back on, and yeah, noticeable difference. Less lows, and highs aren't quite as clear.
I mentioned in the first post that I joined all the solids and joined the stripes stripes, and maybe that is bad. Having the signal split into 8 different pairs as it goes down the run. I dont know.. Just posting my results.
Also, again, as I mentioned in the first post, this is a low power SET w/ high efficiency full range speakers, which means NO crossover. Also, maybe high efficiency speakers show the subtle differences more than something that needs more power to move.
I was honestly very surprised at the difference, or I wouldn't have started this thread.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Free speaker wire shootout - cat6 vs romex
That's a really good idea! I used to do DJ stuff, and have some 50+ foot lengths of stage type cable that usually goes to 1/4" plugs. It's 2 conductors, each about 12 gage, and twisted. Then thats inside a 1/4" thick or so sleeve (standard guitar cable).
I guess I'll try that next and see the difference between 2 conductor solid core vs stranded core, all else being about equal.
Inductor said:
That's a really good idea! I used to do DJ stuff, and have some 50+ foot lengths of stage type cable that usually goes to 1/4" plugs. It's 2 conductors, each about 12 gage, and twisted. Then thats inside a 1/4" thick or so sleeve (standard guitar cable).
I guess I'll try that next and see the difference between 2 conductor solid core vs stranded core, all else being about equal.
Three Bundles (12 x 100ohm pairs) of CAT, get you closest to an
8 ohm balanced transmission line. Might help hide some dielectric
capacitance seen between the pairs, in the overall characteristic
impedance of the greater LC ladder network so formed.
Assumes a well matched resistive load, and real loudspeakers
may or may not cooperate with the 8 ohm resistive assumption...
An 8 ohm resistive amplifier could hide the line capacitance just
as well, but that low damping isn't practical for its own reasons...
Where CAT pairs are each twisted at different rates, its a bit like
a poor man's Litz wire...
8 ohm balanced transmission line. Might help hide some dielectric
capacitance seen between the pairs, in the overall characteristic
impedance of the greater LC ladder network so formed.
Assumes a well matched resistive load, and real loudspeakers
may or may not cooperate with the 8 ohm resistive assumption...
An 8 ohm resistive amplifier could hide the line capacitance just
as well, but that low damping isn't practical for its own reasons...
Where CAT pairs are each twisted at different rates, its a bit like
a poor man's Litz wire...
PaleRider said:Even 7W tubeboxes needs good clean powerways, how much moore with low current high power SS-amps
Did some research on powerconductors some years ago after stumbling over an old Electrocompaniet power cable(24ft -6x1mm SC) I used to replace my old stranded powercable. Hint: there`s no stranded wire in my system today.
First; you can connect as many tiny cores you want, they will never give the same bottom solid powerful sound as real thick cores, that`s 9awg or more. Anyone who`s tryed out fat trafo-conductors will have an idea, that`s what mostly trigged me to start thinkin.
In my SS-system I`m running fat custom trafos w. 13awg primar & 9awg secondaries, twin 9awg powerways to outlets. Woofers performed well feeded by one 4x9awg pr post, lately I added one 7avg and on my 6ft "cable" it lifted dynamics from impressive to shocking or realistic. Own my horn-buddies with a 4-way bass-relex system
13awg schielded solid core powercables also improves dynamics & clearity a lot over stranded pc`s. How much this did on a high-price CD-combo maked my jaw drop back then, thè SC pc`s was intended for poweramps
Palerider, I just want to be clear what you are doing with your speaker cables. You "were" running 4x9AWG to postive and 4x9AWG to negative, "then" you added another strand of 7AWG to both positive and negative terminals for a total of 4x9AWG+1x7AWG to positive and 4x9AWG+1x7AWG to negative.
Is that correct? If so, how do you terminate everything at the amp and speaker end?
Thanks, I had some of my best sound ever with 10AWG solid core speaker wire througout my system too. I'm going to have to give it another try and I like your "More is More" approach.
If your going to run with unbalances twists like that, you really need to reverse one cable from the amp to speaker. That way, under heavy bass lines, the resultant helically rotating dipole field doesn't cause frame grabbing of the earth's aether field. Do you have any idea what that would do to GPS signals??
Sheesh, what were you thinking??
I suspect that is why Scott's gps is so far behind. So stop it!!
jn
Picture would help. Try (to compare both connections or a/b test, before and after) to run them parallel (+ and -) to each driver and close together like all purpose cable. Come here next...
Be careful with Cat5e and Cat6. Not all cables are the same.
Cat5e is often 24awg, 4 pairs, all twisted at the same rate. So all Cat5e wires have the same length inside the external jacket.
This is not the case with Cat6. It can be 23 or 24awg, and the 4 pairs are not twisted at the same rate. So all 4 pairs do not have the same length of wire within the external jacket.
My gut feeling tells me all the wires in a cable should have the same length, and it will be more audible as the cable length extends.
I have no scientific proof that it is audible under 30 feet.
I used Cat6 for mine, and I used many cables to extract all the pairs that had the same twist rate. So all the wires in my cable have the same length (same twist rate). I had the wire already and did not spend extra money to do this.
My recommendation is to use Cat5e and avoid having to deal with the twist rates. You will save time and money.
Cat5e is often 24awg, 4 pairs, all twisted at the same rate. So all Cat5e wires have the same length inside the external jacket.
This is not the case with Cat6. It can be 23 or 24awg, and the 4 pairs are not twisted at the same rate. So all 4 pairs do not have the same length of wire within the external jacket.
My gut feeling tells me all the wires in a cable should have the same length, and it will be more audible as the cable length extends.
I have no scientific proof that it is audible under 30 feet.
I used Cat6 for mine, and I used many cables to extract all the pairs that had the same twist rate. So all the wires in my cable have the same length (same twist rate). I had the wire already and did not spend extra money to do this.
My recommendation is to use Cat5e and avoid having to deal with the twist rates. You will save time and money.
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The twist rates in CAT 5 are different! NOT the same, this is to avoid crosstalk between the LVDS signals.
How could the minor twist rates cause audible problems, work out the electrical length of cable when transmitting audio and you may fine that a few feet difference between one cable and the next will not make any difference what so ever.
Regarding CAT 5 or 6 , Andrew T did some measurements somewhere and I do believe using multiple pairs can increase the cables capacitance.
Me on Sy's recommendation chopped few feet of cable from my lawn mower, I believe the bright Orange colour of the dielectric is better for signal integrity and as an added bonus it always clashes with whatever decorating scheme my beloved wife dreams up, causing endless domestic friction. This could be solved if she went and bought some black or white cable
If you test Cat6 cable at it's highest design frequencies, you will find that the time delays of all the pairs are the same. There is more to it than just twist rates. It took a big computer a long time to figure it out.
more:
"Twisting the Night Away"
http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/Twisting-the-Night-Away-Part-1.cfm
http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/Twisting-the-Night-Away-Part-2.cfm
more:
"Twisting the Night Away"
http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/Twisting-the-Night-Away-Part-1.cfm
http://www.belden.com/blog/broadcastav/Twisting-the-Night-Away-Part-2.cfm
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They have to have the same time delay, we are referring to the use for audio frequencies though where skew is not really an issue between your left and right speaker cables, a few feet wont make a difference. When carrying Ethernet signals its a different matter, the rules for laying out an Ethernet interface are very stringent as is length matching and routing the signals as close coupled diff pairs.
CAT5E is enhanced CAT5, different twist rates for the pairs.
The first Ethernet layouts I did used a BNC connector, with co-ax cable to carry the signals....
CAT5E is enhanced CAT5, different twist rates for the pairs.
The first Ethernet layouts I did used a BNC connector, with co-ax cable to carry the signals....
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