Because the Da-Capo was only designed to be a 16bit DAC
So even if we had an input card that could handle all these high bit rate fromats the DAC itself would only use the 1st 16bits of data for each sample. Just the same as if you built your own DAC based on a 16bit crown TDA dac chip you would't expect to be able to feed the DAC directly with 24bit data and for the DAC to be able to use the data.
It would still play it and sound good but would loose the extra resolution.
2nd the Da-capo can only handle sample rates up to 48Khz (well maybe theoritcally 50Khz) so not sure what the input card would do to handle a higher sample rate than that but suffice to say I guess it again would have to loose some info by converting the sample rate in the data (maybe to 48Khz as that is half of 96 so it would actually still have an improved sample rate over red book CD - this could be a good thing as DAT was 48Khz and it moves the digital noise and mush further away from the audible frequencies).
Maybe there are some clues to this further back in this thread when John Westlake was discussing Replacement Digital Filter with a new Input Card to go with it though I just can't remember what was and wasn't said at that point.
John
So even if we had an input card that could handle all these high bit rate fromats the DAC itself would only use the 1st 16bits of data for each sample. Just the same as if you built your own DAC based on a 16bit crown TDA dac chip you would't expect to be able to feed the DAC directly with 24bit data and for the DAC to be able to use the data.
It would still play it and sound good but would loose the extra resolution.
2nd the Da-capo can only handle sample rates up to 48Khz (well maybe theoritcally 50Khz) so not sure what the input card would do to handle a higher sample rate than that but suffice to say I guess it again would have to loose some info by converting the sample rate in the data (maybe to 48Khz as that is half of 96 so it would actually still have an improved sample rate over red book CD - this could be a good thing as DAT was 48Khz and it moves the digital noise and mush further away from the audible frequencies).
Maybe there are some clues to this further back in this thread when John Westlake was discussing Replacement Digital Filter with a new Input Card to go with it though I just can't remember what was and wasn't said at that point.
John
Audiojoy,
Keep your eye on ebay for an HDCD filter.
I belive some people actually like the 1307 but it does produce a coloured sound (more 2 dimentional as well).
The HDCD filter is the best available and uses the PMD100 (a lot of real high end players used this filter as well). From what John Westlake said when he bought and compared a da-capo to some newer high end design of his and was floored by the Da-Capo. John and his team did some investigation into the quality and his results indicated a lot of digital reconstruction filters actually had probelms and were getting it wrong. The PMD100 was found to be doing the job better than most filters at re-constructing the wavefrom.
I am sure you will still enjoy it with the 1307 but do think the eyes should be open for an opertunity to pick up an HDCD one.
John
Keep your eye on ebay for an HDCD filter.
I belive some people actually like the 1307 but it does produce a coloured sound (more 2 dimentional as well).
The HDCD filter is the best available and uses the PMD100 (a lot of real high end players used this filter as well). From what John Westlake said when he bought and compared a da-capo to some newer high end design of his and was floored by the Da-Capo. John and his team did some investigation into the quality and his results indicated a lot of digital reconstruction filters actually had probelms and were getting it wrong. The PMD100 was found to be doing the job better than most filters at re-constructing the wavefrom.
I am sure you will still enjoy it with the 1307 but do think the eyes should be open for an opertunity to pick up an HDCD one.
John
I think I mentioned before but I really wish there was a way to record audio on a PC at 20bit and convert it to a 16bit HDCD wave file.
So far I have looked long and hard but can't find any software that will enable you to create HDCD encoded audio out of a 20bit source.
Bit of a pain.. Microsoft bought Pacific Microsonics so you would have thought they would actually make encoding avilable in a software form.
I would really like to archive some vinyl and if I could record it at 20bit 48Khz then convert it to a 16bit HDCD encoded but keep the 48Khz file the PT Da-capo should be capable of effectively replaying a 48khz and effectively a 20bit bit depth file which would be great for vinyl archiving combined with how good the Da-capo actually is at bog std 16bit. Being able to record at 20 bit and convert to HDCD would also make it a lot easier for recording level and make the requirement to add dither low level signals much less important.
If anyone dicovers a way to create HDCD encoded files from 20bit source file please let me know.
John
So far I have looked long and hard but can't find any software that will enable you to create HDCD encoded audio out of a 20bit source.
Bit of a pain.. Microsoft bought Pacific Microsonics so you would have thought they would actually make encoding avilable in a software form.
I would really like to archive some vinyl and if I could record it at 20bit 48Khz then convert it to a 16bit HDCD encoded but keep the 48Khz file the PT Da-capo should be capable of effectively replaying a 48khz and effectively a 20bit bit depth file which would be great for vinyl archiving combined with how good the Da-capo actually is at bog std 16bit. Being able to record at 20 bit and convert to HDCD would also make it a lot easier for recording level and make the requirement to add dither low level signals much less important.
If anyone dicovers a way to create HDCD encoded files from 20bit source file please let me know.
John
mr-mac, i would have thought it should have been obvious that i was refering to one of Johns upcoming creations.
Only a idiot would put an HDMI plug on a 16 bit machine from 15 years ago and expect hi-def magic.
Much in the same way people who misread a thread post usually try to correct it
Only a idiot would put an HDMI plug on a 16 bit machine from 15 years ago and expect hi-def magic.
Much in the same way people who misread a thread post usually try to correct it
sq225917 said:mr-mac, i would have thought it should have been obvious that i was refering to one of Johns upcoming creations.
Only a idiot would put an HDMI plug on a 16 bit machine from 15 years ago and expect hi-def magic.
Much in the same way people who misread a thread post usually try to correct it
What? Just in the same way me saying he did look at designing a double width input card when looking at a replacement filter should have made it obvious I had thought you had been talking about a da-capo (which takes input cards)
I re-looked at your post and it doesn't specifically mention his new DAC though it does say "consider putting HDMI on one of your DAC's" so I suppose I should have picked up on that fact.
Not sure what you mean about correcting mistakes by edditing as I havn't ever done that.
So I misconstrued what you said. It wasn't through lack of reading or not giving it the attention it deserved just a plain and simple mistake.
Kind Regards
John
And I suppose....
Why is it so silly to maybe want to feed a Da-Capo with hi-res digital? It does have somthing very special about the sound and shows pretty much all other 16bit stuff a clean pair of heals.
I also think that the da-capo at 48Khz 16bit will actually still, for some music, I belive, give some of the higher res DAC's a good run for their money.
So tbh if you are feeding it from a mid range high res player and can't afford a high end 24/192 DAC solution it would actually be a reasonable compromise.
My 2p anyway
John
PS though the above is just a generlisation and will likely not apply for JW's new stuff as it should be very good indeed and the price looks very keen as well
Why is it so silly to maybe want to feed a Da-Capo with hi-res digital? It does have somthing very special about the sound and shows pretty much all other 16bit stuff a clean pair of heals.
I also think that the da-capo at 48Khz 16bit will actually still, for some music, I belive, give some of the higher res DAC's a good run for their money.
So tbh if you are feeding it from a mid range high res player and can't afford a high end 24/192 DAC solution it would actually be a reasonable compromise.
My 2p anyway
John
PS though the above is just a generlisation and will likely not apply for JW's new stuff as it should be very good indeed and the price looks very keen as well
Hi John, believe me i am desperate to try one of the more highly recommended filters, if only one came up on ebay. However, please trust me when i say it sounds three dimensional in my set up, not flat at all. I have now had it playing in my main system - yamaha ns1000 speakers / audionote P4 300b signature monoblocks and it is the same finding. This is why I am wondering if the electrolytic cap changes may have changed the way the filter responds???
Luke
Luke
Black gates usually don't make subtle changes. Straight away there's much more transient response.
The 'cheapest' black gates can sound harsh and too 'edgy' and grainy or 'fuzzy' though compared to decent 'normal' electrolytics such as Nichicon KZ or GS4 or the better grade black gates which still give the greatly increased dynamics but with a more acceptable 'smoothness'.
I usually don't test capacitors before three months use. By then they've pretty much changed to what they're going to sound like.
But any black gates, pretty much anywhere can change your sound immediately by quite lot.
Oscons can also be more dynamic but also very clear.
The 1307 was an expensive chip when it came out, Philips told me £65 to buy one! I had one but never used it. intended to join it to a pair of TDA1541's but the problem was how to connect the CD transport feed to the 1307. The data sheet was ambiguous and Philips semiconductors were unable to shed any light on the problem. The 1307 had three pins that were to connect direct to the de-coder chip in a CD player with the right kind of decoder.
The 'cheapest' black gates can sound harsh and too 'edgy' and grainy or 'fuzzy' though compared to decent 'normal' electrolytics such as Nichicon KZ or GS4 or the better grade black gates which still give the greatly increased dynamics but with a more acceptable 'smoothness'.
I usually don't test capacitors before three months use. By then they've pretty much changed to what they're going to sound like.
But any black gates, pretty much anywhere can change your sound immediately by quite lot.
Oscons can also be more dynamic but also very clear.
The 1307 was an expensive chip when it came out, Philips told me £65 to buy one! I had one but never used it. intended to join it to a pair of TDA1541's but the problem was how to connect the CD transport feed to the 1307. The data sheet was ambiguous and Philips semiconductors were unable to shed any light on the problem. The 1307 had three pins that were to connect direct to the de-coder chip in a CD player with the right kind of decoder.
1307's may not be cheap but defo present a coloured rendition not a neutral and accurate one...
As you say it already sounds great so I am sure your delighted but one day an HDCD will come up for sale. If you don't preffer it then I am sure you'll be able to sell for purchase price... Though I do belive it will be the 1307 you will want to sell.
John
As you say it already sounds great so I am sure your delighted but one day an HDCD will come up for sale. If you don't preffer it then I am sure you'll be able to sell for purchase price... Though I do belive it will be the 1307 you will want to sell.
John
Any one with a spare hdcd filter for sale ???
I do not wish to use this thread to try and mod John's work as he is quite obviously very talented both aurally and electronically.!! Now that is unusual.
But whilst we await his latest late late late LATE LATE LATE offering might I be so bold as to suggest -
do away with his filter and bang in a simple one way traffic of electrons via a valve output?? I might give this one a go.
Don't bite my head off, honestly I do believe in everything John does.
I do not wish to use this thread to try and mod John's work as he is quite obviously very talented both aurally and electronically.!! Now that is unusual.
But whilst we await his latest late late late LATE LATE LATE offering might I be so bold as to suggest -
do away with his filter and bang in a simple one way traffic of electrons via a valve output?? I might give this one a go.
Don't bite my head off, honestly I do believe in everything John does.
I assume you're not confusing the digital filter with the sallen and key filter
Quite a few people like 'em but in my experience (and by measurement) valve = distortion. It's just that some people like that kind of distortion. But it's distortion never the less, and maybe 0.1%.
I'm trying to make amplifiers with a distortion of 0.0001% or better across the whole audio band at full power, not just at low power or at 1kHZ, so why would I, or anyone with low distortion equipment (= HIGH fidelity), want to ad a valve anywhere at all?
Quite a few people like 'em but in my experience (and by measurement) valve = distortion. It's just that some people like that kind of distortion. But it's distortion never the less, and maybe 0.1%.
I'm trying to make amplifiers with a distortion of 0.0001% or better across the whole audio band at full power, not just at low power or at 1kHZ, so why would I, or anyone with low distortion equipment (= HIGH fidelity), want to ad a valve anywhere at all?
Hi Ian yes as per MR Lampizator
http://www.lampizator.eu/
Although i think I beat him to it when i did the naim cds
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25940
that will give away the game. Yes sorry self taught never had a tutorial in my life. Career in medicine, zilch to do with electronics.But Love music love fiddling around with electronics to take the stress of daily consultations out of me. Yes blew up up a lot of things as i taught my self along the way. So please not too technical.
http://www.lampizator.eu/
Although i think I beat him to it when i did the naim cds
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25940
that will give away the game. Yes sorry self taught never had a tutorial in my life. Career in medicine, zilch to do with electronics.But Love music love fiddling around with electronics to take the stress of daily consultations out of me. Yes blew up up a lot of things as i taught my self along the way. So please not too technical.
new da capo
hello
i have a question for john westlake or anyone else that might be able to help. i have recently been thinking that replacing the capacitors in my da capo should be done sooner rather than later. however, hearing so much about the new project and how reasonably priced it will be has left me a little unsettled. should i get the work done on my old machine or wait? no disrespect to john, but what if i wait and when i eventually hear the new model decide, for whatever reason, that i preferred my old one. also will it be available to audition?
some of you may find it strange to think about the possibility of preferring an older model, but this story might help you understand my concerns. i have a da capo with a 24 bit filter and it sounds superb. the right balance of smoothness allied with an open 3 dimensional sound and great tonal balance and musicality. my friend, on hearing my dac, decided to get one. he bought one with a 24 bit filter and it sounds completely different. it has a slightly different tonal balance, is smoother sounding, but more 2 dimensional. it actually sounds quite veiled in comparison and much less musical and involving. as you can imagine he is quite upset, we both agree that mine is superior. our theory is that his is a version of the later 24 bit filters, but we have no way of knowing, it could be that mine is, they both have the year 1999 printed on them. oh, and it is definitely the filter that is the cause of the different sound as we have swapped them between our dacs. so, this is the reason for my reservations as to whether or not a newer version of something will necessarily sound better!
if john westlake is able to tell me if his new machine will be available for audition then i may hold on. but i am still very tempted to sort my capacitors out and retain the service of my superb sounding older machine. what do you guys think? any opinions or information about anything i have outlined here would be greatly appreciated.
thanks guys
frank
hello
i have a question for john westlake or anyone else that might be able to help. i have recently been thinking that replacing the capacitors in my da capo should be done sooner rather than later. however, hearing so much about the new project and how reasonably priced it will be has left me a little unsettled. should i get the work done on my old machine or wait? no disrespect to john, but what if i wait and when i eventually hear the new model decide, for whatever reason, that i preferred my old one. also will it be available to audition?
some of you may find it strange to think about the possibility of preferring an older model, but this story might help you understand my concerns. i have a da capo with a 24 bit filter and it sounds superb. the right balance of smoothness allied with an open 3 dimensional sound and great tonal balance and musicality. my friend, on hearing my dac, decided to get one. he bought one with a 24 bit filter and it sounds completely different. it has a slightly different tonal balance, is smoother sounding, but more 2 dimensional. it actually sounds quite veiled in comparison and much less musical and involving. as you can imagine he is quite upset, we both agree that mine is superior. our theory is that his is a version of the later 24 bit filters, but we have no way of knowing, it could be that mine is, they both have the year 1999 printed on them. oh, and it is definitely the filter that is the cause of the different sound as we have swapped them between our dacs. so, this is the reason for my reservations as to whether or not a newer version of something will necessarily sound better!
if john westlake is able to tell me if his new machine will be available for audition then i may hold on. but i am still very tempted to sort my capacitors out and retain the service of my superb sounding older machine. what do you guys think? any opinions or information about anything i have outlined here would be greatly appreciated.
thanks guys
frank
If your change your capacitors your DAC won't sound like it does now. You may not like it. You may like it more. Only one way to find out.
See my post above about capacitors.
Re: the 1307 filter and intending to join it to a pair of TDA1541's, I meant to a pair a TDA1547 bit stream DAC chips. If I recall the number correctly that is.
Some people think that adding shed load of distortion is an improvement. Maybe your DAC has more distortion that your friends. Distortion adds a sense of more treble, more bass and can seem like there's more image (3D effect).
A cleaner sounding system tend to need to be turned up in volume to get the same sense of loudness.
See my post above about capacitors.
Re: the 1307 filter and intending to join it to a pair of TDA1541's, I meant to a pair a TDA1547 bit stream DAC chips. If I recall the number correctly that is.
Some people think that adding shed load of distortion is an improvement. Maybe your DAC has more distortion that your friends. Distortion adds a sense of more treble, more bass and can seem like there's more image (3D effect).
A cleaner sounding system tend to need to be turned up in volume to get the same sense of loudness.
Rasp,
I would suggest as your dac's sound diffrent and we know that all da-capos have caps that will leak that one of the two dacs is in a worse state than the other.
Now we all know the da-capo sounds very special indeed so I would guess the one that sounds veilled and 2D has more problems than yours (maybe caps are getting to stage where they have leaked a lot and are causing circuit damage and also are no longer performing in spec).
I doubt there will be multiple versions of the 24 bit filter. They will likely have only done 1 production run as I doubt they will have had that massive a market for the new filters.
For your one I also suggest if you like the 24bit try and hear an HDCD if you ever get the chance.
Not sure what to recommend. JW preffers OSCON organic ones (and I think this is what he used to replace the ones in his). Changing them would at least protect the hardware and if you like his new DAC better would at least keep the dacapo working long enough to sell it. If it died you may loose the option to sell it if it can't be repaired. As always you make your choices and take your chances.
IIRC the new DAC is internet sales only (but has 30day money back, minus postage).
John
I would suggest as your dac's sound diffrent and we know that all da-capos have caps that will leak that one of the two dacs is in a worse state than the other.
Now we all know the da-capo sounds very special indeed so I would guess the one that sounds veilled and 2D has more problems than yours (maybe caps are getting to stage where they have leaked a lot and are causing circuit damage and also are no longer performing in spec).
I doubt there will be multiple versions of the 24 bit filter. They will likely have only done 1 production run as I doubt they will have had that massive a market for the new filters.
For your one I also suggest if you like the 24bit try and hear an HDCD if you ever get the chance.
Not sure what to recommend. JW preffers OSCON organic ones (and I think this is what he used to replace the ones in his). Changing them would at least protect the hardware and if you like his new DAC better would at least keep the dacapo working long enough to sell it. If it died you may loose the option to sell it if it can't be repaired. As always you make your choices and take your chances.
IIRC the new DAC is internet sales only (but has 30day money back, minus postage).
John
24 bit
good point john
i had totally overlooked resale value. if i get the caps replaced i keep my options well and truly open and will more than likely get a return. i did hear an HDCD filter a couple of years ago, but unfortunately the dac was on its way out and the guy selling didn't want to sell the filter on its own and wasn't willing to lower his asking price which i thought was too high for an already faulty dac. it did sound superb, when it worked.
if the new dac comes with a 30 day money back guarantee then that is ideal. i'll definitely audition one. it's not available yet though is it? any idea when?
thanks
frank
good point john
i had totally overlooked resale value. if i get the caps replaced i keep my options well and truly open and will more than likely get a return. i did hear an HDCD filter a couple of years ago, but unfortunately the dac was on its way out and the guy selling didn't want to sell the filter on its own and wasn't willing to lower his asking price which i thought was too high for an already faulty dac. it did sound superb, when it worked.
if the new dac comes with a 30 day money back guarantee then that is ideal. i'll definitely audition one. it's not available yet though is it? any idea when?
thanks
frank
caps
ian
i read your post about black gate caps and oscons. which would you recommend for the least amount of alteration in sound? i love the present tonal balance and balance of openness and smoothness of my dac with its original caps. also i have seen other people refer to rubycons. do you have any knowledge or opinion about these?
thanks in advance
frank
ian
i read your post about black gate caps and oscons. which would you recommend for the least amount of alteration in sound? i love the present tonal balance and balance of openness and smoothness of my dac with its original caps. also i have seen other people refer to rubycons. do you have any knowledge or opinion about these?
thanks in advance
frank
Hi Frank
if you do not mind i would like to share my experiences with you. I have a lot of experience changing caps both with oscons and black gates/cerafines/audionotes/v-cap/jensens/PETP/Teflon caps etc etc. I have changed caps from cd players to power amplifiers. I tend to get the same sonic changes no matter which circuit i add them to.
Unlike a lot of other people my experiences with oscons have been less favourable. Often warmer sounding but less detailed and less dimensional. However, I have only ever used low capacitance low voltage oscons which do not seem to come in the values that could be used in the da capo power supply. Please correct me if i am wrong,. At those lower voltages the non electrolytic caps i favour have always been far superior in almost every respect to the oscons. In particular audionote copper, and petp military caps.
You will have read my experiences with black gates and cerafines in the dacapo in the above posts, which took me by surprise. Usually in most equipment i notice much less dramatic changes when changing to these electrolytic caps. This to me therefore suggests that the originals may have been on their last legs rather than the fact that these may in some way have been so much more superior than i usually notice them being.
if you do not mind i would like to share my experiences with you. I have a lot of experience changing caps both with oscons and black gates/cerafines/audionotes/v-cap/jensens/PETP/Teflon caps etc etc. I have changed caps from cd players to power amplifiers. I tend to get the same sonic changes no matter which circuit i add them to.
Unlike a lot of other people my experiences with oscons have been less favourable. Often warmer sounding but less detailed and less dimensional. However, I have only ever used low capacitance low voltage oscons which do not seem to come in the values that could be used in the da capo power supply. Please correct me if i am wrong,. At those lower voltages the non electrolytic caps i favour have always been far superior in almost every respect to the oscons. In particular audionote copper, and petp military caps.
You will have read my experiences with black gates and cerafines in the dacapo in the above posts, which took me by surprise. Usually in most equipment i notice much less dramatic changes when changing to these electrolytic caps. This to me therefore suggests that the originals may have been on their last legs rather than the fact that these may in some way have been so much more superior than i usually notice them being.