I agree that we can really only expect incremendal improvements in DAC sound quality for the foreseeable future.
I hate to state the obvious, but we all know those recordings that are recorded/mastered so well that they sound great even on a DAC from 1990's or even on a "lifestyle" home audio.
Then there are those numerous recordings where people recording/mastering did not do their job and sound poor to mediocre even on multi-million dollar systems.
No, I have no solutions for this gargantuan problem for us music lovers.
A DSP dac could be a good business idea.
Let's be honest.. it's difficult to compete with cinese companies when it comes to classic dacs. They are now able to put new products on the market every 3 months witch works great given the consumerism of the modern people. Their distribution chains are better than ever: I can buy cinese dacs in EU with free shipping and 0 taxes - pretty unfair for others like Allo Audio. I know it sounds stupid but... cdsgames could you use their distribution also?
@Markw4
Thank you for your review of D90. Now I'm sorry I did not buy it when it came out...
On the other hand I just can't believe that AKM won't come back. Quit now when finally they released chips than can compete with ESS?! For us it would be a disaster. What desire would ESS have to improve anything without real competition?
Let's be honest.. it's difficult to compete with cinese companies when it comes to classic dacs. They are now able to put new products on the market every 3 months witch works great given the consumerism of the modern people. Their distribution chains are better than ever: I can buy cinese dacs in EU with free shipping and 0 taxes - pretty unfair for others like Allo Audio. I know it sounds stupid but... cdsgames could you use their distribution also?
@Markw4
Thank you for your review of D90. Now I'm sorry I did not buy it when it came out...
On the other hand I just can't believe that AKM won't come back. Quit now when finally they released chips than can compete with ESS?! For us it would be a disaster. What desire would ESS have to improve anything without real competition?
What makes a DAC sound better...old question . I have a few ideas and they are well known (like good clocks) harmonic content , power supply ..
I am auditioning systems with room correction and when done well...its a game changer . Its much more important to SQ than DAC ic . The downside , its a learning curve . Also it needs a calibrated microphone . A subwoofer.. some crazy stuff we measured on it , the Dac needs to be isolated from sub since we see a LOT of noise from those cheap/medium priced subs.
So yes lots of stuff to think about .
I am auditioning systems with room correction and when done well...its a game changer . Its much more important to SQ than DAC ic . The downside , its a learning curve . Also it needs a calibrated microphone . A subwoofer.. some crazy stuff we measured on it , the Dac needs to be isolated from sub since we see a LOT of noise from those cheap/medium priced subs.
So yes lots of stuff to think about .
DSP and class-D amps can go a long ways to getting a system to a certain point, and do it at reasonably low-ish cost. Ultimately though, its a dead end. Room RT-60 cannot be controlled by DSP. Very jagged speaker frequency response and or poor dispersion characteristics can't be properly controlled by DSP. The ASRC built-in to common DSP chips is not SOA low-distortion, etc. There are other problems that may be considered controversial, so I will leave off here.
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So. Back to Boss2.
Assuming that the device is a bit shy of dynamics, seperation, stage-depth and width...
...as being reported.
IMO the typical characteristics that are not seen on these standard (published) measurements.
What could be wrong with a Boss2!?!?
First of all NOTHING!
It's a $99 device. It's doing very well for the budget. Period.
Anyhow.
I suppose Allo tried to make the B2 as good as they possibly can and put all their experience into it.
Really !?!? Of course Allo needs to keep a distance to their flagship DAC, beside keeping an eye on the budget.
That's the point where business demands limit the evolution of product development. A normal situation.
Now. We're @ DIY-Audio. It's our "duty" to challenge designs.
It is not clear what would have to be done on a B2 to improve its performance even with a larger budget at hand.
According to Markw4, it could be "noise floor modulation" as "one of the things that affects soundstage depth, etc." Yep - one of the things - I like that.
I personally do think there's a lot more to be found on the power rail part.
* proper analog and digital separation - the Boss2 is a single-rail/single supply DAC.
* lack of dual-mono - usually leading to higher impedance and lower current capability
to name "TWO of the things", I'd look into.
These areas we see being properly addressed by higher quality implementations. And might also cover Markw4s "noise floor modulations" subject.
Just to mention it. I had a look at the Gustard A22 board and PS design over the weekend. Wow that's a beast. Gustard seems to have a very strong focus on the rails.
In the end it's again the transient response, load capability and load interferences, that seem to play a big role here and elsewhere. (1.5m of DC-cable won't help with that. )
Gustard also separates analog & digital with two different supplies - and not just the rails. I suppose this A22 DAC is doing quite well on the noise floor modulation part. From the reviews I read, I havn't seen many (any?) people complaining about dynamics, stage....
The big Q is once more? Can you measure the related result of all that effort from the outside? Something the marketing department would ask for!?!?
Can you achieve something like that Gustard performance, with a smarter design @ a (much) lower budget?
**************************
DSP DAC.
Nope. IMO there's no need for a DSP DAC. Chord has done it. And???
When it comes to DRC. I'd stay away from it!
Unless you want to end up with mediocre stuff like the competition. (I fully agree to Markw2s statement)
From my experience. The better the DAC performance, the less you can accept DRC/DSP on top of it. (Been there, done it)
Enjoy.
Assuming that the device is a bit shy of dynamics, seperation, stage-depth and width...
...as being reported.
IMO the typical characteristics that are not seen on these standard (published) measurements.
What could be wrong with a Boss2!?!?
First of all NOTHING!
It's a $99 device. It's doing very well for the budget. Period.
Anyhow.
I suppose Allo tried to make the B2 as good as they possibly can and put all their experience into it.
Really !?!? Of course Allo needs to keep a distance to their flagship DAC, beside keeping an eye on the budget.
That's the point where business demands limit the evolution of product development. A normal situation.
Now. We're @ DIY-Audio. It's our "duty" to challenge designs.
It is not clear what would have to be done on a B2 to improve its performance even with a larger budget at hand.
According to Markw4, it could be "noise floor modulation" as "one of the things that affects soundstage depth, etc." Yep - one of the things - I like that.
I personally do think there's a lot more to be found on the power rail part.
* proper analog and digital separation - the Boss2 is a single-rail/single supply DAC.
* lack of dual-mono - usually leading to higher impedance and lower current capability
to name "TWO of the things", I'd look into.
These areas we see being properly addressed by higher quality implementations. And might also cover Markw4s "noise floor modulations" subject.
Just to mention it. I had a look at the Gustard A22 board and PS design over the weekend. Wow that's a beast. Gustard seems to have a very strong focus on the rails.
In the end it's again the transient response, load capability and load interferences, that seem to play a big role here and elsewhere. (1.5m of DC-cable won't help with that.
)Gustard also separates analog & digital with two different supplies - and not just the rails. I suppose this A22 DAC is doing quite well on the noise floor modulation part. From the reviews I read, I havn't seen many (any?) people complaining about dynamics, stage....
The big Q is once more? Can you measure the related result of all that effort from the outside? Something the marketing department would ask for!?!?
Can you achieve something like that Gustard performance, with a smarter design @ a (much) lower budget?
**************************
DSP DAC.
Nope. IMO there's no need for a DSP DAC. Chord has done it. And???
When it comes to DRC. I'd stay away from it!
Unless you want to end up with mediocre stuff like the competition. (I fully agree to Markw2s statement)
From my experience. The better the DAC performance, the less you can accept DRC/DSP on top of it. (Been there, done it)
Enjoy.
Perhaps you better look first for the dead-ends, flaws and limitations.
I am sure there are plenty of people around who are willing to report.
That'd save you a lot of time, which you could invest into even better DAC designs.
I could do that...or I could proceed with what I belive in. Not a hard choice. Still, there is much to learn, I am reading 400 pages of datasheet. So far, the architecture it's working, one clock for everything (so no asrc). I have to talk to the room correction engineers. Oh yeah I am planing on using Andrea mori designs for mclk.
A DSP dac could be a good business idea.
Let's be honest.. it's difficult to compete with cinese companies when it comes to classic dacs. They are now able to put new products on the market every 3 months witch works great given the consumerism of the modern people. Their distribution chains are better than ever: I can buy cinese dacs in EU with free shipping and 0 taxes - pretty unfair for others like Allo Audio. I know it sounds stupid but... cdsgames could you use their distribution also?
@Markw4
Thank you for your review of D90. Now I'm sorry I did not buy it when it came out...
On the other hand I just can't believe that AKM won't come back. Quit now when finally they released chips than can compete with ESS?! For us it would be a disaster. What desire would ESS have to improve anything without real competition?
Hi,
I am in the same situation. I prefer to buy the Gustard/Smsl Dacs from AliExpress because Allo didn’t sell through it.
AliExpress has free shipping to Brazil , and products go easy in Customs.
But I would buy from Allo if they had the free Distribution as the AliExpress has! AliExpress has free shipping to Brazil and the products arrive in 20 days maximum.
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Any more progress on the Amp? I noted from the tpa3255 discussions that distortion/harmonic levels is dependent upon chip voltage :
TPA3255 - all about DIY, Discussion, Design etc.
Hi @cdsgames
Open a office in Hk. Transfer ready products from Bangalore to Hk (you will continue to produce in India). Concentrate AliExpress for all your worldwide sales/shipping. Close office in France (use it for products development only) and elsewhere to save money and headaches!! Close website for sales (use it for products info only). Just my viewpoint from actual worldwide Comerce!
Open a office in Hk. Transfer ready products from Bangalore to Hk (you will continue to produce in India). Concentrate AliExpress for all your worldwide sales/shipping. Close office in France (use it for products development only) and elsewhere to save money and headaches!! Close website for sales (use it for products info only). Just my viewpoint from actual worldwide Comerce!
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Chris
The AMP was halted due to covid lockdown in Bangalore. We expect it to last 2 weeks .
Meanwhile, our main engineer is working from home , but progress is slow. Yes there is a difference with voltage on THD+N however in our latest PCB , its not significant .
Altsouza , some markets are harder to reach from India . Yes Brazil is one of them, but we would rather concentrate in finding a distri in Brazil then opening an office in HK or China due to ...many things.
Yes you can have faster access from Aliexpress to Brazil and probably cheaper. We concentrate on giving you good value , innovation and a solid customer service at the expense of "very cheap only"
The AMP was halted due to covid lockdown in Bangalore. We expect it to last 2 weeks .
Meanwhile, our main engineer is working from home , but progress is slow. Yes there is a difference with voltage on THD+N however in our latest PCB , its not significant .
Altsouza , some markets are harder to reach from India . Yes Brazil is one of them, but we would rather concentrate in finding a distri in Brazil then opening an office in HK or China due to ...many things.
Yes you can have faster access from Aliexpress to Brazil and probably cheaper. We concentrate on giving you good value , innovation and a solid customer service at the expense of "very cheap only"
@cdsgames
Please take your time on DSP solutions. I am waiting for them. I plan to adapt it with allo TPA3255 amps as the fundations of my active-xover speaker systems. Please kindly consider: 1. volume control (total and individual output channels), 2. browser-based UI control with 5 setting restored, 3. Pi-integrated frequency-filter/time-delay settings, 4. 5-digital ( SPDIF RCA, fiber, HDMI-arc, USB, GPIO) inputs and 6~8 channels analogue out. 5. mic integration would be a plus. If this unit available, I'd be happy to pay $1000 usd for an assembled unit.
I ordered a Volt+D and another Volt+-with-vr to form a set of 2-way bookshelf speakers (the digital DSP/x-over unit is MiniDSP 2x4HD). It works great in the living room with TV-fiber-out. Though I don't mind having more power for woofers and better control interface on minidsp, but my parents and friends are auite impressed with the sounds.
Thanks