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dam1941 - Next Gen Discrete R-2R Sign Magnitude 24 bit 384 Khz DAC module
dam1941 - Next Gen Discrete R-2R Sign Magnitude 24 bit 384 Khz DAC module
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Old 14th April 2019, 09:42 PM   #411
Blitz is offline Blitz  Germany
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Peter, do I get this right...you replace the 1000uF / 10V with 10uF /50 V caps ? That would be quiet a change in values...
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:07 PM   #412
soekris is offline soekris  Denmark
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dam1941 - Next Gen Discrete R-2R Sign Magnitude 24 bit 384 Khz DAC module
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Daniel View Post
All red caps are N type, the bigger ones are 100/50
And yes, all those BGs are worth more than the DAC board itself ;-)
I would call that a big step back compared with the mounted 1000u polymers, could be one of the typical cases where you want your mod to be better....

If you want to add your magical capacitors, keep the original and parallel new ones....

But the whole idea for the dam19x1 is for DIY'er to experiments, especially on the power supplies and output buffers, the accessory boards are just to be used as a starting points....
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:09 PM   #413
Peter Daniel is offline Peter Daniel  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
Peter, do I get this right...you replace the 1000uF / 10V with 10uF /50 V caps ? That would be quiet a change in values...
Yes, that’s exactly what I did and it works perfectly fine for me. That choice was inspired by my past experience with my own DAC design where smaller caps produced better results.
I also tried OsCons here briefly, and they produced marginally better results than stock polymer caps, but it was nothing like the change I’m experiencing with those small caps.
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Last edited by Peter Daniel; 14th April 2019 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:29 PM   #414
Blitz is offline Blitz  Germany
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But why those expensive BG then ? There are real polyprops at a nicer price point around, no ? But its interesting that these areas are identified to change the sound...so if one chooses to go wild, why not a couple of CDE 947D...they really sound transparent...serious stuff, big like a COKE-can...
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:35 PM   #415
Peter Daniel is offline Peter Daniel  Canada
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I just happen to have a good stock of them and use them when occasion arise. I would never pay current prices. As pointed previously, the OsCons may be a good alternative.
Forget big polyprops, they may be good for speaker crossovers, but not here. BTW, there were very few polypropylene I found better in signal coupling than 4.7uF BG N.
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:37 PM   #416
Peter Daniel is offline Peter Daniel  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soekris View Post
I would call that a big step back compared with the mounted 1000u polymers, could be one of the typical cases where you want your mod to be better....

If you want to add your magical capacitors, keep the original and parallel new ones....

But the whole idea for the dam19x1 is for DIY'er to experiments, especially on the power supplies and output buffers, the accessory boards are just to be used as a starting points....
I’v been refraining myself from touching caps on main board since November last year, but curiosity finally took over.
What is the actual purpose of such high capacitance? I would call it a typical case when one thinks more is better.
Paralleling caps never works well, choose one good cap and leave it alone, otherwise the inferior one will mask the virtues of the better one.
I’m not claiming those are magical caps, I just happen to like them in digital circuits and they always worked well for me: Pushing the limits of TDA1543 NOS DAC

Besides, I DID say:

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I might be imagining things....
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Last edited by Peter Daniel; 14th April 2019 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 14th April 2019, 10:49 PM   #417
soekris is offline soekris  Denmark
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dam1941 - Next Gen Discrete R-2R Sign Magnitude 24 bit 384 Khz DAC module
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Daniel View Post
I’v been refraining myself from touching caps on main board since November last year, but curiosity finally took over.
What is the actual purpose of such high capacitance? I would call it a typical case when one thinks more is better.
Paralleling caps never works well, choose one good cap and leave it alone, otherwise the inferior one will mask the virtues of the better one.
An important thing on DACs is low impedance on the vrefs at frequencies from DC to Mhz, especially on a R-2R DAC where output is directly related to the vrefs. The importance of that have been discussed many many times on the dam1021 thread.

The dam190x1 have opamps being used as regulators, those closed loop output impedance start to rise at 10 Khz, there the capacitors take over, simulations showed that a 1000u polymer was an excellent choice, not a random choice. That one have low impedance up to several hundreds Khz, where then a number of ceramics take over, both large and small, low inductance is also important, what's why 0402 sizes are good too.
Paralleling capacitors works very good, that way you can get low impdance and inductance over a large frequency range. And only low impedance count on vref decopling, any magic caps are a waste if their specs don't match the needs. My taget is 10 mOhm from DC to Mhz.
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Last edited by soekris; 14th April 2019 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 15th April 2019, 07:45 AM   #418
Blitz is offline Blitz  Germany
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Ok, if I understand this right, Soren is confirming that the Vrefs caps are very critical to how this DAC sounds in general, right ?

So, my next question would be: Is the requirement to go low impedance from DC up to Mhz coming from playing DSD ? Or the other way around: If one is only playing pcm up to 192khz, can we get rid of those ceramic caps (which I would find suspious first before touching the 1000uf)?

The other question I would have is: The requirement is 10mOhm, right ? So, the ESR is the important parameter, not the capacitance, right ? I own a couple of larger caps like polyprops or even motor-oiler which sound good and get down to this 10mohm or even lower...the mentioned 947D is clearly a monster (and meant more like a joke), but goes down to 1-1.5mohm....and that at least up to 100khz (where the datasheets ends), so I guess there are some nice polyprops which might fullfill this requirement even into the Mhz area, no ?

Last edited by Blitz; 15th April 2019 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 15th April 2019, 12:55 PM   #419
Peter Daniel is offline Peter Daniel  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soekris View Post
An important thing on DACs is low impedance on the vrefs at frequencies from DC to Mhz, especially on a R-2R DAC where output is directly related to the vrefs. The importance of that have been discussed many many times on the dam1021 thread.

The dam190x1 have opamps being used as regulators, those closed loop output impedance start to rise at 10 Khz, there the capacitors take over, simulations showed that a 1000u polymer was an excellent choice, not a random choice. That one have low impedance up to several hundreds Khz, where then a number of ceramics take over, both large and small, low inductance is also important, what's why 0402 sizes are good too.
Paralleling capacitors works very good, that way you can get low impdance and inductance over a large frequency range. And only low impedance count on vref decopling, any magic caps are a waste if their specs don't match the needs. My taget is 10 mOhm from DC to Mhz.
Thanks for the explanation. So how was it done in dam1021, which I also have, and with few simple mods it sounded quite good?
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Old 15th April 2019, 01:10 PM   #420
analog_sa is offline analog_sa  Europe
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dam1941 - Next Gen Discrete R-2R Sign Magnitude 24 bit 384 Khz DAC module
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Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
I guess there are some nice polyprops which might fullfill this requirement even into the Mhz area, no ?

The only films that can manage this are the Panasonic ECPU. No leaded or wound part is likely to be any good at high frequencies due to the added inductance.

But yes, those ceramics are very tempting to discard.
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