12dB of what? noise? Low order harmonics? High order? How much is tweaked out with harmonic distortion compensation? Does that compensation come out different with Ramussen cap installed? If so, will unsoldering the cap leave compensation mis-teaked?
Understood. The problem is that THD+N is a completely useless metric in terms of how humans hear. They can hear noise and they can hear individual harmonics. THD+N says nothing at all about better or worse to humans.
Hmmh.
Obviously it's not that useless.
It shows that something has seriously (12db is a lot!) changed to the worse (technically) in the first place.
And it shows that the signal gets a big step away from perfect (neutral) reproduction.
As far as I recall 2nd order distortions can make the sound "nicer". These are still distortions though!
3rd order distortions can make it sound awful.
They all get you away from neutral reproduction though.
How much impact these distortions really have on the sound experience depends on numerous factors.
It might be very well the case that the mix of flawed frequencies might cause this new and great experience
cdsgames is talking about! It doesn't mean that it is OK!
On a well masked system you might don't hear anything. That's another possibility.
My experience:
The better the system gets, the more you want to have neutral devices in the chain.
And for sure you need THD+N to know how you're doing on the technical side.
Obviously it's not that useless.
It shows that something has seriously (12db is a lot!) changed to the worse (technically) in the first place.
And it shows that the signal gets a big step away from perfect (neutral) reproduction.
As far as I recall 2nd order distortions can make the sound "nicer". These are still distortions though!
3rd order distortions can make it sound awful.
They all get you away from neutral reproduction though.
How much impact these distortions really have on the sound experience depends on numerous factors.
It might be very well the case that the mix of flawed frequencies might cause this new and great experience
cdsgames is talking about! It doesn't mean that it is OK!
On a well masked system you might don't hear anything. That's another possibility.
My experience:
The better the system gets, the more you want to have neutral devices in the chain.
And for sure you need THD+N to know how you're doing on the technical side.
Last edited:
And then you have people like Nelson Pass putting out 2nd Harmonic Generators I the hands of people. So you would argue he is producing 'signal degradators', if every loss in THD means things have gone 'worse'.
The matter of fact is that there is a lot of very clever people (and with very good ears) that think that this added distortion in the way of 2nd and 3rd harmonics may actually improve certain characteristics of the sound.
So I am not sure that less THD is always better. Let's assume that every mastering engineer out there masters his music knowing there will be added harmonics in the process. Then a purely 'neutral' process will leave the sound without those benefits.
If on the other hand every engineer mastered with his or her own added harmonics because the process is assumed to be perfectly neutral, then the 'colored' amps would degrade the signal.
But given the disparity of processes and the lack of a perfectly established norm, there is room to play with different perceptions.
If you think every added THD is worse, then go with the 'purists' board and leave the others to decide which is best for them.
Why do you feel the need to have the last word and be the only judge of what sounds better for others? Why not relax and let this two different flavors coexist so that people can choose one or the other... or both?!!!
Rafa.
The matter of fact is that there is a lot of very clever people (and with very good ears) that think that this added distortion in the way of 2nd and 3rd harmonics may actually improve certain characteristics of the sound.
So I am not sure that less THD is always better. Let's assume that every mastering engineer out there masters his music knowing there will be added harmonics in the process. Then a purely 'neutral' process will leave the sound without those benefits.
If on the other hand every engineer mastered with his or her own added harmonics because the process is assumed to be perfectly neutral, then the 'colored' amps would degrade the signal.
But given the disparity of processes and the lack of a perfectly established norm, there is room to play with different perceptions.
If you think every added THD is worse, then go with the 'purists' board and leave the others to decide which is best for them.
Why do you feel the need to have the last word and be the only judge of what sounds better for others? Why not relax and let this two different flavors coexist so that people can choose one or the other... or both?!!!
Rafa.
Last edited:
2nd Harmonics make things potentially "nicer". Yes, Pass degrades signals from a technical perspective.
There are still many people out there, who like smooth and warm sounding "analog"
playback. Fair enough.
There are numerous digital filters which can help you with it too.
Many times people cover up their flawed systems by adding a bit warmth and smoothness to it. Fair enough.
Instead of covering up the flaws I'd rather like to get rid of them. That'd me my strategy in
the first place.
Enjoy.
There are still many people out there, who like smooth and warm sounding "analog"
playback. Fair enough.
There are numerous digital filters which can help you with it too.
Many times people cover up their flawed systems by adding a bit warmth and smoothness to it. Fair enough.
Instead of covering up the flaws I'd rather like to get rid of them. That'd me my strategy in
the first place.
Enjoy.
Last edited:
The problem is THD+N is a lumped metric. Its the simple sum of all the nasties. Dissonant harmonics (odd) are much more audible and objectionable at a given level than consonant harmonics (even). Pure noise is benign. The harmonic mix of imperfections in your system is very important and a simple lumped measurement will never give you the whole picture.
Agreed! But when you are looking at the difference between -100.5dBv THD+N and - 112.8dBv both are low enough values to be dealing in subtleties in my opinion.
If you are engineering a multiway loudspeaker system for instance you'd kill to achieve -60dB THD in the midband, you'd be looking at a few percent at low frequencies!
That's what high-end audio is all about.
99.999% of all people couldn't care less about these discussions.
And than you need to hear it, to see what's actually going on.
All these measurements won't really nail it. They just indicate changes here and there at the first glance.
The attributes of that Rasmussen tweak were described as being "smooth" and "nice"
resulting in a worthwhile change though!
It's obviously clearly audible. That's pretty much common sense.
Nope, I'm pretty sure we're not talking about "subtleties" here - at least from an "audiophile" perspective.
Enjoy.
Last edited:
Yes they will receive the 3 boards free
Manufacturing will advise us shortly. I canot commit yet to a firm date but still "soon"
I remember seeing some speculation about the possibility of 2nd harmonic distortion upstream acting as a cancellation signal to speakers’ own 2nd harmonic distortion. Don’t want to veer off topic too much but as far as 2nd harmonics go, there may be a reason that some people prefer electronics with them.
* First of all over here we're talking about a random noise and harmonics spectrum. - This is unwanted.
* Even if there'd be a technical reason for playing with 2nd (2nd order/even order ??)
we'd still be talking about a flawed system. You fight flaws with other flaws and by doing
so you add even more flaws and hope you'll have it all right after that. Good luck with that.
Similar issue with people who think they solve their issues be running equalizers.
Most of these folks just don't realize that they heavily mess with the signal harmonics.
And make things even worse.
* In the digital photography area things are more obvious. In the early days the results
were so bad that they wouldn't work without heavy smoothing.
On todays high quality camera chips - if trying a smoothing filter - you're just leaving it
alone. It looks awful.
And that's what I and many others experienced in audio too. The better your base system
the less you can live with artificial flaws. You rather concentrate on addressing the core flaws of the system.
However. Since everybody is in a different phase on the audiophile evolution scale, a certain tweak - even if it is a flaw on its own - might be the better compromise at that point in time.
Enjoy.
* Even if there'd be a technical reason for playing with 2nd (2nd order/even order ??)
we'd still be talking about a flawed system. You fight flaws with other flaws and by doing
so you add even more flaws and hope you'll have it all right after that. Good luck with that.
Similar issue with people who think they solve their issues be running equalizers.
Most of these folks just don't realize that they heavily mess with the signal harmonics.
And make things even worse.
* In the digital photography area things are more obvious. In the early days the results
were so bad that they wouldn't work without heavy smoothing.
On todays high quality camera chips - if trying a smoothing filter - you're just leaving it
alone. It looks awful.
And that's what I and many others experienced in audio too. The better your base system
the less you can live with artificial flaws. You rather concentrate on addressing the core flaws of the system.
However. Since everybody is in a different phase on the audiophile evolution scale, a certain tweak - even if it is a flaw on its own - might be the better compromise at that point in time.
Enjoy.
Last edited:
Hi cdsgames, I message to you, but your inbox full already.
In this topic, you said that as this link New FIFO buffer for RPI/SBCs
So, I think : all people that odered and get Katana 1 have 2 options :
1. Get a refund and can keep Katana V1.
2. Wait ( months or years...) and get Katana V2 and New Iso free.
May I wrong?!?
In this topic, you said that as this link New FIFO buffer for RPI/SBCs
So, I think : all people that odered and get Katana 1 have 2 options :
1. Get a refund and can keep Katana V1.
2. Wait ( months or years...
) and get Katana V2 and New Iso free.May I wrong?!?
Thanks for your confirm. Next times pls note exact infor in your Website. It's better than you said in some forum like here. Customer can wait and belive your product if they trust in your trade name... If you loss our trust....