You just upload the original filter file: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vend...magnitude-24-bit-384-khz-149.html#post4216998
You must be tone deaf.
As your friend has a totalDAC, I think it's not unreasonable to ask - Have you done a side by side comparison between the totalDAC and the DAM1021. Or have you done side by side comparison to the totalDAC using the same headphone rig? Or are you just relying the auditory memory on listening on your friends system then comparing that to what you hear on headphones?
Last edited:
Thanks for comparing, I was waiting for someone to do so. Our tiny V3 is good value for money and it can compete with many way higher priced DACs but a well built R2R DAC apparently is too much for it. It should be that way really when price/complexity are also compared. I doubt that R2R is better in all cases but that is another topic. Let's say that the topology is just a way to a result.
Just for my curiosity: were the compared DACs both compared when connected via SPDIF ?
Last edited:
Actually it's a comment from someone who doesn't like music, but rather would focus on demo tracks. A gear head.
Good
Because my invitation to anyone who have experienced a TotalDac or MSB to step forward hasn't been met. I'm now starting to realize that maybe these two insanely priced dacs are too hard to come by. I totally understand that. I have just been lucky to hear one or two of them. (Or unlucky depending on how you see it).
My experience with the TotalDac, and the Discrete Monica for that matter, simply changed my whole conception of what a dac is capable of. Nothing less.
I would never force my opinion on anybody. Everyone is entitled to be his own judge, which I think is fairly evident in this thread. I recently wrote 'statements like these are of absolutely no value for me'. I hardly think that could offend anyone. I've been expressing subjective opinions all along, carefully avoiding general expressions like 'this doesn't sound good' etc. Always using disclaimers like 'IMO' etc.
We have to bear in mind though, that Søren himself set the bar with his bold opening statement 'I believe that the sound quality will be the absolute best, better than any Delta Sigma DAC, in class with discrete DAC's from totaldac and msb technology.'
The premise of this whole thread is 'Reference DAC Module - Discrete R-2R'. So far this thread of more than 2000 posts has been lacking references to other Discrete R-2R dacs.
If a car salesman wants to sell you a car that he thinks is comparable to a Rolls Royce and it turns out to be more of a Toyota, then it is pretty far from a Rolls Royce no matter how nice this car is, right? And you begin to question if the salesman have actually driven a Rolls Royce himself or just seen the pictures in a magazine?
Be careful not to put words into my mouth. The filter adventure is not over yet just as the experimentation with hardware hasn't really taken off yet, fiddling with batteries and so on.
Did I say that? I just think it's appropriate to compare the dac to the two dacs Søren himself set out to challenge from the very start. So far there's been some positive and negative posts concerning the sound. Some without any reference and some with reference to sigma-delta dacs.
I think we all should strive for the absolute best at a reasonable price in stead of just settling for another nice sounding dac. If you have never driven a Rolls Royce how would you know what it feels like?
Exactly. That's what I mean by house sound. Maybe it doesn't show up on graphs and oscilloscopes but my ears tell me so. Easily. And that goes for both the buffered and the raw output. In order to go forward, it's essential to point out the weaknesses of a product in stead of defending what could be bettered without breaking the bank. (IMO).
Good
.... (IMO).
But you havent heard the Total DAC in your system, have you? And you havent heard the DAM in the systems you heard the Total DAC?
Or?
//
Yes I have.
Both my Sennheiser HE60 and my LCD's I have heard on both dacs as well as my Discrete Monica.
Headphones travel light
I'd be willing to bet that what you like about the total dac is due to its triode buffer. Put a triode buffer on the dam , don't use the opamps and I think you might be surprised. And use a decent set of speakers that reveal imaging, soundstaging and the other things that make music more believable.
Hi Paul,
Just so that I understand your post correctly, what you are suggesting is to have the relay drain the voltage from the rails through the relay to ground. Is that correct? By the time that the relay switched, the input power is disconnected from the transformer, so it would just be stored energy being drained. Would you also use some small resistor in line with the relay so that the voltage would come down smoothly?
Hmmn. I think I'll see if I can find the Pass D1 circuit diagram on line.
Jac
You can power a relay from one of the 7V transformer windings. Just a small diode bridge into a capacitor of say 470 uf, then a resistor to the positive relay terminal. Put 1000uf across the relay. Put another diode 1n4007 or similar across the resistor pointing cathode back to the bridge.
If you use a 5v relay, and choose a resistor that works with that and your rectified supply, you will get a delayed turn on and very quick turn off.
Use the relay contacts in series with the signal or shunt.
If you use a 5v relay, and choose a resistor that works with that and your rectified supply, you will get a delayed turn on and very quick turn off.
Use the relay contacts in series with the signal or shunt.
What gazzagazza said.
I wouldn't advocate using the Pass circuit in this context, but it illustrates how the shunt to GND is switched by the relay. I've attached the relevant sections from the D1 schematic. The 42V supply is picked up the main supply caps, and the 30V supply taken from just after the first regulator in the analog supply.
Attachments
Last edited:
Thumbs Up for SebastianL
I support your view. I am at loss why some members are pouncing upon you. They are not coming forward with their own experience of other R2R DACs instead they are just challenging your experience. We should learn both from knowledge and experiences of others.
I am refraining from purchase because I have yet to see the tangible support from Søren. There is not a simple manual yet (it is much important than firmware or filters). In filter thread oneoclock posted some measurements and there is clipping (perhaps that is the cause of "forward sound") which zfe thinks need to be fixed in firmware......etc. Earlier I asked Søren for such measurements but he thought the measurements will be just perfect and thus he saw no need for it.
I support your view. I am at loss why some members are pouncing upon you. They are not coming forward with their own experience of other R2R DACs instead they are just challenging your experience. We should learn both from knowledge and experiences of others.
I am refraining from purchase because I have yet to see the tangible support from Søren. There is not a simple manual yet (it is much important than firmware or filters). In filter thread oneoclock posted some measurements and there is clipping (perhaps that is the cause of "forward sound") which zfe thinks need to be fixed in firmware......etc. Earlier I asked Søren for such measurements but he thought the measurements will be just perfect and thus he saw no need for it.
Yes I have.
Both my Sennheiser HE60 and my LCD's I have heard on both dacs as well as my Discrete Monica.
Headphones travel light
Sebastian, have you had a chance, or do you have a capability with your system to listen unbuffered output? If you have not had a chance please try you might like it.
On another note, I think we are all too serious about $ 230 DAC with many benefits and seriously great potential. Initial simplicity is the absolute advantage allowing to have it up and running in no time and almost without any further investments. I hope to see major upgrades in near future that will improve over alrady excellent DAC
If anyone is interested I've posted a new totalCRaP™ filter...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...filter-brewing-soekris-r2r-7.html#post4254393
It might be an interesting experiment for those running with fixed 0dB outputs as this lowers volume into the R2R ladder by 3.5dB to prevent possible intersample clipping. This should make some difference with any digital material that has been normalised to -3dBFS or higher.
cheers
Paul
CEO, CSO, CBsA
totalCRaP CoRP. Pty. Ltd.
Creative Reconstruction audio Philters
If you haven't heard totalCRaP™,
you haven't heard anything.
ok?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digi...filter-brewing-soekris-r2r-7.html#post4254393
It might be an interesting experiment for those running with fixed 0dB outputs as this lowers volume into the R2R ladder by 3.5dB to prevent possible intersample clipping. This should make some difference with any digital material that has been normalised to -3dBFS or higher.
cheers
Paul
CEO, CSO, CBsA
totalCRaP CoRP. Pty. Ltd.
Creative Reconstruction audio Philters
If you haven't heard totalCRaP™,
you haven't heard anything.
ok?
Precisely. Even the so-called "cheap" Monica Discrete R2R has a price tag of around $1500 - x6 the price of a 0.01% board and x9 the price of a 0.05% board. You still have a lot of spare change out of $1.5K even once you've added a case, supply, and USB->I2S interface, and switch board.
My own reference is a DIY dac based on the Pass D1 - 4 x PCM63P-Y's and with Spencer JFET interpretation of the Pass I/V, Borbley JFET super regs, etc etc. The 4xPCM63P chips are worth about as much as the entire DAM. Even with the opamp outputs running direct to the UcD180HG+HxR's -> Audiovector Ki1 Signatures the DAM is at least as smooth as the PCM63P's, but with far better detail, sound staging, HF extension and all round balance.
While listening to the NPD1 I discovered the sibilance I'd been convinced was a fault of the DAM was also apparent on the NPD1 - but less forward due to it's rolled off HF's. It's either something else in the system or the recordings themselves. I've have to listen on another DAC with headphones to see exactly what's going on - unfortunately my only pair of cans are HD25-II's which are low impedance so won't work with the DAM.
cheers
Paul
Just thinking further on the future DSD capability, many people here are using inputs via modules, such as the Amanero or RPi, that hookup to the DAC's I2S input header; in that case, if there is no mapping of the I2S input pins to accept native DSD, wont the DoP packets need to be transcoded to PCM before being passed to the DAC over I2S? Would the only way to get DoP data into the DAC for processing be via SPDIF?
We're cool Sebastian
Personally, I follow the old saying "If it sounds too good to be true. It probably is." That said, I still believe that the final determinant will be from the filter work (which is also the place where Soren has been upfront about wanting help on).
R2R DACs are simple in design and while you may debate that the resistors aren't the best, etc... the general construction seems more similar than far apart. Hence that belief in quite a few of us - we all hear potential that's why we're discussing what else to do here right?
I agree wholeheartedly with you. That said, there is a big reason why so many haven't heard parallel DACs, right? The whole industry views it as too expensive a venture for what it delivers (measurements for them to sell products). The overwhelming majority of DACs are Delta Sigma, and people who are happy with their R2R DACs likely won't be interested in another one? You kind of admitted it yourself, didn't you? If you had a TotalDAC, you wouldn't bother with this. So in a way, we all have you to thank because you're able to compare and list out the differences (which you haven't really... you just say it's nothing close without saying how? Or I may have missed that?)
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I definitely agree with you. Right now, I'm of the view, the DAM1021 really doesn't suit headphones (Stax setup an exception, though I'm not sure why? On Delta Sigma DACs, the Stax and Senn HD800 are different but you still could enjoy their merits. It took me a really long time to re-orientate myself with the HD800 and the DAM1021.) It needed the Realiser really.
So now, maybe we can all discuss how to make the sound a tad more laidback. I think we all agree the tonal balance is there... the imaging is there (if a tad left-right) which I believe will be less so once we're able to bring the presentation back a few metres/feet.
Cheers for the good discussion.
Good
If a car salesman wants to sell you a car that he thinks is comparable to a Rolls Royce and it turns out to be more of a Toyota, then it is pretty far from a Rolls Royce no matter how nice this car is, right? And you begin to question if the salesman have actually driven a Rolls Royce himself or just seen the pictures in a magazine?
Personally, I follow the old saying "If it sounds too good to be true. It probably is." That said, I still believe that the final determinant will be from the filter work (which is also the place where Soren has been upfront about wanting help on).
R2R DACs are simple in design and while you may debate that the resistors aren't the best, etc... the general construction seems more similar than far apart. Hence that belief in quite a few of us - we all hear potential that's why we're discussing what else to do here right?
I agree wholeheartedly with you. That said, there is a big reason why so many haven't heard parallel DACs, right? The whole industry views it as too expensive a venture for what it delivers (measurements for them to sell products). The overwhelming majority of DACs are Delta Sigma, and people who are happy with their R2R DACs likely won't be interested in another one? You kind of admitted it yourself, didn't you? If you had a TotalDAC, you wouldn't bother with this. So in a way, we all have you to thank because you're able to compare and list out the differences (which you haven't really... you just say it's nothing close without saying how? Or I may have missed that?)
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I definitely agree with you. Right now, I'm of the view, the DAM1021 really doesn't suit headphones (Stax setup an exception, though I'm not sure why? On Delta Sigma DACs, the Stax and Senn HD800 are different but you still could enjoy their merits. It took me a really long time to re-orientate myself with the HD800 and the DAM1021.) It needed the Realiser really.
So now, maybe we can all discuss how to make the sound a tad more laidback. I think we all agree the tonal balance is there... the imaging is there (if a tad left-right) which I believe will be less so once we're able to bring the presentation back a few metres/feet.
Cheers for the good discussion.
I get nervous when people call for a more laidback presentation because it usually results in a dumbing down effectSo now, maybe we can all discuss how to make the sound a tad more laidback. I think we all agree the tonal balance is there... the imaging is there (if a tad left-right) which I believe will be less so once we're able to bring the presentation back a few metres/feet.
Cheers for the good discussion.
anyway I found that suppling a better 3.3v supply than the ldo had improved resolution and flow it could be called more laidback without any losses
I know this dac is sorta diy and sorta not but I would have liked a provision for external supplies even if onboard ones are there( jumpers etc)
That is my impression as well after replacing the default 1117 series 3.3V regulator with a TPS7A4700 based one. I am itching to try something more decent in place of 7XL05 preregulators for the R2R supply, but will not have time until the end of this month.
The relatively low price of DAM1021 pretty much dictates use of cheapest components that fit the minimum specs, so no complaints there. But it certainly can be improved.
Yes. On the other hand, when compared to the likes of Totaldac, the price of DAM allows treating it almost like a disposable. Rip it apart and when you break it, just get another one