I see I have sparked some interest here.
Sy, I agree that controls are needed here. Anyone that claims otherwise is not interested in results of a test, just validating there opinion.
Joel, The double blind test is a very good one and I personally will use it and long term listening as well. I feel like sometimes extended listening gives me the time to here subtle things that I miss in short term listening.
Later
Bruce
Sy, I agree that controls are needed here. Anyone that claims otherwise is not interested in results of a test, just validating there opinion.
Joel, The double blind test is a very good one and I personally will use it and long term listening as well. I feel like sometimes extended listening gives me the time to here subtle things that I miss in short term listening.
Later
Bruce
i meant this thread in particular. and i do distinctly remember you saying "DC is DC." no matter, i understand that some "objectivists" like yourself will never be convinced, and that's fine. just because one disagrees doesn't mean one must derail other people who are well meaning in their intentions. by the way, are you saying that a metal film resistor sounds no different from a carbon film, because you've tried that yourself, or because you just "know" it's so? what do you use in your own equipment? have you tried changing components and seeing how it sounds afterwards?
Dorkus: I don't know what you mean by "objectivist, " so I can't comment on that.
As to the DC thing, I believe that what I said was that if a supply line is clean, showing no signal or noise on it within 90-100 dB or so (accounting for PSRR of the circuit) of the maximum signal with the circuit handling the material intended for it (e.g., music), it is audibly insignificant. If someone claims that two competent (in the above sense) regulators sound different, I would take that seriously if and only if there was some sort of valid listening test to back up that assertion.
I've done sooooo many listening tests of components, amps, wires, and the like over the past 35 years or so that I've been building stuff that I'm pretty confident that there's nothing magic or exotic going on. I'm no engineer, but I'm a reasonaly competent and experienced circuit designer.
*HOWEVER* (and I capitalize and emphasize this to prevent being misquoted again) I am absolutely open to the possibility that some exotic phenomenon might be shown to be true and audible, probably to better ears than mine. But merely asserting that "tantalum foil sounds better than carbon film" is not, to my mind, evidence that such an audible difference exists, any more so than the mere claim that orienting barrels North-South will make a wine taste different than orienting the barrels East-West is evidence that there's some mysterious polar force affecting wine.
As to the DC thing, I believe that what I said was that if a supply line is clean, showing no signal or noise on it within 90-100 dB or so (accounting for PSRR of the circuit) of the maximum signal with the circuit handling the material intended for it (e.g., music), it is audibly insignificant. If someone claims that two competent (in the above sense) regulators sound different, I would take that seriously if and only if there was some sort of valid listening test to back up that assertion.
I've done sooooo many listening tests of components, amps, wires, and the like over the past 35 years or so that I've been building stuff that I'm pretty confident that there's nothing magic or exotic going on. I'm no engineer, but I'm a reasonaly competent and experienced circuit designer.
*HOWEVER* (and I capitalize and emphasize this to prevent being misquoted again) I am absolutely open to the possibility that some exotic phenomenon might be shown to be true and audible, probably to better ears than mine. But merely asserting that "tantalum foil sounds better than carbon film" is not, to my mind, evidence that such an audible difference exists, any more so than the mere claim that orienting barrels North-South will make a wine taste different than orienting the barrels East-West is evidence that there's some mysterious polar force affecting wine.
What i really can't figure out is why is an 'objectivist' wasting time and effort to participate in 'myth - debunking' discussions. From an 'objectivist' point of view audio has long ago reached a peak well exceeding human hearing. All this SACD/DVDa stuff is obviously just marketing gimmicks for the ignorant masses. And LPs are for the sad povo that can't afford redbook cds and still stick to their old cracking collections. So why waste the effort to preach to those misguided, ignorant, delusional souls who think they can hear the unheardable? I don't think they will rest until everyone admits that bits are bits, parts are parts, wire is wire, steady state distortion is all that matters. Instead of offering a critical perspective, all they do is preach their simplistic engineering models as those are the only ones they fully mastered. I, at least have some excuse to invest time in this forum - once in a while a true gem - something which makes a real difference in the enjoyment of sound appears in the discussions.
What, i really want to know is their excuse?
Sorry for the long rant, just couldn't help it.
peter
What, i really want to know is their excuse?
Sorry for the long rant, just couldn't help it.
peter
bruce,
i think the hardest part of being able to quantify the subtle difference in performance of parts (or any component for that mater) is that it's the dynamic performance which is what varies so much, and is the hardest to measure. conventional measurement techniques tend to capture only static/steady-state distortion phenomena. music is anything but static and steady-state. however, i think impulse response may be one area that might prove somewhat helpful, at least with some parts. related to impulse response, FFT analysis may be helpful as well, although it will take some serious measurement gear to even approach the resolution of (good) human hearing.
i think the hardest part of being able to quantify the subtle difference in performance of parts (or any component for that mater) is that it's the dynamic performance which is what varies so much, and is the hardest to measure. conventional measurement techniques tend to capture only static/steady-state distortion phenomena. music is anything but static and steady-state. however, i think impulse response may be one area that might prove somewhat helpful, at least with some parts. related to impulse response, FFT analysis may be helpful as well, although it will take some serious measurement gear to even approach the resolution of (good) human hearing.
Feinman has left us...Thank's for the input Dorkus.
Any suggestionson what signals to use, or how to measure?
I had thought that sign waves pulsed on and off with a 5% duty cycle could give us a look at some dynamic effects. Looking at the input and output of the test box with a signal like this on a dual trace storage scope could show us rise time issuses, Group delay, ringing and maybe others.
That brings up the "test box". What should it be?
Later
Bruce
Any suggestionson what signals to use, or how to measure?
I had thought that sign waves pulsed on and off with a 5% duty cycle could give us a look at some dynamic effects. Looking at the input and output of the test box with a signal like this on a dual trace storage scope could show us rise time issuses, Group delay, ringing and maybe others.
That brings up the "test box". What should it be?
Later
Bruce
i'm not sure you'll be able to see much phenomenon (intermodulation or otherwise) with pulsed sine waves, but it's worth a shot. i'm not sure what the duration of the impulse is for, say, an Audio Precision system is, but you might want to look into their measurement techniques. the other phenomena you mention are definitely worth keeping a look out for. i doubt it will appease some of the objectivist crowd even if you can measure it though, as they'll probably claim such distortions are inaudible. i'm not sure how to prove if something is audible or not, as if you say it is, they'll say it's psychology...
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