>Tubes are just so cool to look at. Are there any decent >affordable kits availible that I can cut my teeth on to get >started? Where do you guys order your parts from? Thanks. I'm >an SS guy and I would like to try and build a tube amp for fun.
--
>Danny
Hey Danny,
We need more infomaton to make sure you end up with a good experience with your first tube amplifier. The most important question is what are the speakers you are using and how efficient are they? For example my 2-way horns are biamplified with two sets of tube mono blocks. My high freq drivers are around 112dB efficient with 1 watt @ 1 meter. I am using a pair of 1.8 wpc Welborne SET 45 mono blocks. They are really being used to power both the HF and the 100dB efficient bass bins. The volume gets lound enough to drive me out of the room. I have a pair of Welborne 8 wpc SET 300b DRD amps for the bass bins, but I also have a pair of 35 wpc push pull Klimo amps using el34 tubes. I will be a/b'ing the 300b and el34 to see which sounds best on my 2-way horn speakers. My crossover is a active tube marchand xm-126. So give us the information on your speakers and many here can point you to a good matching tube kit. I am a big fan of Welborne kits. The iron is first rate in Electraprint output transformers. The amps to my ears are a bargain for their price level. Do quite a few searches on the web. Google will reward you with many hits on DIY tube amplifiers.
Best regards, John C.
--
>Danny
Hey Danny,
We need more infomaton to make sure you end up with a good experience with your first tube amplifier. The most important question is what are the speakers you are using and how efficient are they? For example my 2-way horns are biamplified with two sets of tube mono blocks. My high freq drivers are around 112dB efficient with 1 watt @ 1 meter. I am using a pair of 1.8 wpc Welborne SET 45 mono blocks. They are really being used to power both the HF and the 100dB efficient bass bins. The volume gets lound enough to drive me out of the room. I have a pair of Welborne 8 wpc SET 300b DRD amps for the bass bins, but I also have a pair of 35 wpc push pull Klimo amps using el34 tubes. I will be a/b'ing the 300b and el34 to see which sounds best on my 2-way horn speakers. My crossover is a active tube marchand xm-126. So give us the information on your speakers and many here can point you to a good matching tube kit. I am a big fan of Welborne kits. The iron is first rate in Electraprint output transformers. The amps to my ears are a bargain for their price level. Do quite a few searches on the web. Google will reward you with many hits on DIY tube amplifiers.
Best regards, John C.
i built Steve Deckerts Zen amp and I like it
check out http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm
or check out bottlehead too http://www.bottlehead.com/
nice tube amps too
i use single ended low power tube amp for highly efficient satelite speakers from 150 Hz up, never for bass section
or as tube amp for stax
check out http://www.decware.com/newsite/mainmenu.htm
or check out bottlehead too http://www.bottlehead.com/
nice tube amps too
i absolutely agree with jpchleapas
i use single ended low power tube amp for highly efficient satelite speakers from 150 Hz up, never for bass section
or as tube amp for stax
If you are near Seattle...you might want to pay Doc. B. a visit to listen to some of his stuff.
http://www.bottlehead.com
And yes..the previous posters were right on with their remarks...you need to tell us more...like budget...size of listening room..maybe even types of music you listen and what you are looking for in YOUR soundsystem...and you are probably going to need to buy different speakers as well to make it work REALLY well.
http://www.bottlehead.com
And yes..the previous posters were right on with their remarks...you need to tell us more...like budget...size of listening room..maybe even types of music you listen and what you are looking for in YOUR soundsystem...and you are probably going to need to buy different speakers as well to make it work REALLY well.
Thanks everyone, one of the friendliest responses I've seen on here in a while. So I knew about the efficiency thing with the speakers. My current mains aren't going to cut it, or I wouldn't be pleased, that much I know. But I've got either a line array or a T-line project next up that I was thinking about trying out with a tube amp. I've built a few zens so I know what I get from 8-watts and moderate damping factor.
--
Danny
--
Danny
More info...
I'm not looking to spend a lot of money, just get my feet wet. Doc B's website sounds expensive. I'm a pretty skilled solderer and have built quite a few amps and my own PCBs. Since I have a speaker project in the queue, I can tailor it to match the amp. The likely listening room for this would be most likely be split between a 18x24 vaulted ceiling room and a 12x12 hobby room. I suppose even a simple starter schematic and links to where to find affordable parts would be enough. Thanks again.
--
Danny
I'm not looking to spend a lot of money, just get my feet wet. Doc B's website sounds expensive. I'm a pretty skilled solderer and have built quite a few amps and my own PCBs. Since I have a speaker project in the queue, I can tailor it to match the amp. The likely listening room for this would be most likely be split between a 18x24 vaulted ceiling room and a 12x12 hobby room. I suppose even a simple starter schematic and links to where to find affordable parts would be enough. Thanks again.
--
Danny
If you want a cheap kit, the S5 Electronics Kit might suffice. I actually have one of these, but I have yet to assemble it. I may do so this weekend and if I do, I'll let you know what I think. Its an 8W push-pull job, so it may have enough power to push more inefficient speakers.
Voltsecond offers his opinion plus a couple of modifications (along with all appropriate disclaimers--- void warranty, potentially dangerous high voltages, etc.) with this kit here.
I am still a newbie to tubes (and all DIY audio, really) but its worth a mention that if you have been working only in solid state, remember that tube voltage can kill the snot out of you if you're not careful.
Here's a forum link to some tube safety stuff you should know as well. Please forgive me if you are already familiar with these safety precautions, but I thought I'd give it a mention.
That said, here's a link to Fred Nachbaur's site with couple of really cheap projects-- an SET (1W) and a push-pull (3.5W) that may be worth a look. I have slowly been gathering parts for the Miniblok II, but again, I have yet to put it together (I really gotta finish something soon). You can probably put together the SET for around $100 and the push-pull for around $150... although I was able to get the filament Txs for about $6 a piece from Allied Electronics, so that might reduce the overall price of the PP a bit.
And now, back to world peace...
Kofi
Voltsecond offers his opinion plus a couple of modifications (along with all appropriate disclaimers--- void warranty, potentially dangerous high voltages, etc.) with this kit here.
I am still a newbie to tubes (and all DIY audio, really) but its worth a mention that if you have been working only in solid state, remember that tube voltage can kill the snot out of you if you're not careful.
Here's a forum link to some tube safety stuff you should know as well. Please forgive me if you are already familiar with these safety precautions, but I thought I'd give it a mention.
That said, here's a link to Fred Nachbaur's site with couple of really cheap projects-- an SET (1W) and a push-pull (3.5W) that may be worth a look. I have slowly been gathering parts for the Miniblok II, but again, I have yet to put it together (I really gotta finish something soon). You can probably put together the SET for around $100 and the push-pull for around $150... although I was able to get the filament Txs for about $6 a piece from Allied Electronics, so that might reduce the overall price of the PP a bit.
And now, back to world peace...
Kofi
>More info...
>I'm not looking to spend a lot of money, just get my feet wet. >Doc B's website sounds expensive. I'm a pretty skilled solderer >and have built quite a few amps and my own PCBs. Since I have >a speaker project in the queue, I can tailor it to match the amp. >The likely listening room for this would be most likely be split >between a 18x24 vaulted ceiling room and a 12x12 hobby room. >I suppose even a simple starter schematic and links to where to >find affordable parts would be enough. Thanks again.
--
>Danny
Danny sorry to say there is no free lunch. Actually Doc B's amps are rather inexpensive by comparrison to the Welborne amps I own. If you break down on paper the cost to build an amp from scractch it is not really that inexpensive at all to DIY one. Derek Walton has a great site where he has the best plans and step by step instructions to build his version the the JE Labs version of the Fi primer in a 8 wpc 300b tube amplifier. I now have most parts to build one for my apartment. It is not cheap to build a good sounding amplifier. I am using Tango XE 20S 3.5's output iron, Tamura 10 H chokes, Welborne wooden enclosures, Kimber binding posts and the Angela universal power transformers. That does not even count the small stuff like EML 300b tubes, hook up wire, Wonder solder, tube sockets, and having the chassis drilled by a metal shop for me. Perhaps you should pick up a distressed Dynaco ST-70 and rebuild that to get a taste for tubes. You should be able to find one for under 300 that needs work. Just make certain the iron is good. I had one of mine rebuilt by Kevin Kennedy who has one of the best upgrades for these amps. Also if you go that route Ned at Triode can hook you up with a SDS cap board that will improve the flabby bass and make the power supply near bullet proof. Replace the 5AR4 with a better sounding GZ33 rectifier and scrounge for a quad of real Mullard el34 tubes. They are the best soundiing EL34 tubes, period. If you do this on the real cheap and end up buying a piece of you know what Chinese amps for cheap you will have a less than positive experience with tubes. Maybe the DIY route like Derek's amp where you can buy parts slowly over time is the best route for you. You would be better off not trying tubes if you try to do it too cheaply. The first thing on your list before the tube amp should be a tube friendly pair of speakers. Vintage offers the best bang for the buck. A used pair of Altec Valencia, or Klipsch Cornwall type speakers can be had for under 1000. To me the speakers are the most important part of the audio food chain. Then remember you will need a tube preamplifier, or you will want to diy an integrated tube amplifier. A good inexpensive preamplifier kit can be had in the Grounded Grid. Take your time and use a program like Excel (or a pencil and paper) to figure out the real cost to go tubular. Who knows when you crunch the numbers and see what good parts cost the Welborne and Bottlehead amps are really very fairly priced. There is a used 300b DRD Welborne amp for 1100 at AudioGon as of yesterday. Just be careful and do LOTS of reading on the subject over a month or so to see what you are really in for. Remember you will want a good soldering station, and maybe a wood table to work on. I can tell you that there is no going back once you get a listen to a quality tube amplifier through a very good pair of speakers. I was lucky to find my pair of JBL L300 Summit speakers for only $500 about 3 years ago. I called the seller and we had a week of snow storms and he held them for me. People were trying to lowball him when his asking price was only 500. These speakers sell for 2500 on ebay and Far East collectors pay 5K to buy them. I am told I would have to spend 10K to better their sound and I believe it. I rented a truck and I went to buy them sight unseen across MA. With their midrange horns the vocals are top notch to be sure. They are 93dB efficient and can sing with 8 to 10 watts a channel. They sounded VERY good with my ST-70 with Mullard tubes in it and Kevin K's mods in the circuit that basically gives it a triode front end. Wired in triode we emasured 19 wpc before clipping. Good luck and start reading a LOT on the subject. Always remember that all audio is subjective. None more so than tube amplifiers and horn speakers. Always rely on your own ears to determine what sounds the best in your home stereo. John C.
>I'm not looking to spend a lot of money, just get my feet wet. >Doc B's website sounds expensive. I'm a pretty skilled solderer >and have built quite a few amps and my own PCBs. Since I have >a speaker project in the queue, I can tailor it to match the amp. >The likely listening room for this would be most likely be split >between a 18x24 vaulted ceiling room and a 12x12 hobby room. >I suppose even a simple starter schematic and links to where to >find affordable parts would be enough. Thanks again.
--
>Danny
Danny sorry to say there is no free lunch. Actually Doc B's amps are rather inexpensive by comparrison to the Welborne amps I own. If you break down on paper the cost to build an amp from scractch it is not really that inexpensive at all to DIY one. Derek Walton has a great site where he has the best plans and step by step instructions to build his version the the JE Labs version of the Fi primer in a 8 wpc 300b tube amplifier. I now have most parts to build one for my apartment. It is not cheap to build a good sounding amplifier. I am using Tango XE 20S 3.5's output iron, Tamura 10 H chokes, Welborne wooden enclosures, Kimber binding posts and the Angela universal power transformers. That does not even count the small stuff like EML 300b tubes, hook up wire, Wonder solder, tube sockets, and having the chassis drilled by a metal shop for me. Perhaps you should pick up a distressed Dynaco ST-70 and rebuild that to get a taste for tubes. You should be able to find one for under 300 that needs work. Just make certain the iron is good. I had one of mine rebuilt by Kevin Kennedy who has one of the best upgrades for these amps. Also if you go that route Ned at Triode can hook you up with a SDS cap board that will improve the flabby bass and make the power supply near bullet proof. Replace the 5AR4 with a better sounding GZ33 rectifier and scrounge for a quad of real Mullard el34 tubes. They are the best soundiing EL34 tubes, period. If you do this on the real cheap and end up buying a piece of you know what Chinese amps for cheap you will have a less than positive experience with tubes. Maybe the DIY route like Derek's amp where you can buy parts slowly over time is the best route for you. You would be better off not trying tubes if you try to do it too cheaply. The first thing on your list before the tube amp should be a tube friendly pair of speakers. Vintage offers the best bang for the buck. A used pair of Altec Valencia, or Klipsch Cornwall type speakers can be had for under 1000. To me the speakers are the most important part of the audio food chain. Then remember you will need a tube preamplifier, or you will want to diy an integrated tube amplifier. A good inexpensive preamplifier kit can be had in the Grounded Grid. Take your time and use a program like Excel (or a pencil and paper) to figure out the real cost to go tubular. Who knows when you crunch the numbers and see what good parts cost the Welborne and Bottlehead amps are really very fairly priced. There is a used 300b DRD Welborne amp for 1100 at AudioGon as of yesterday. Just be careful and do LOTS of reading on the subject over a month or so to see what you are really in for. Remember you will want a good soldering station, and maybe a wood table to work on. I can tell you that there is no going back once you get a listen to a quality tube amplifier through a very good pair of speakers. I was lucky to find my pair of JBL L300 Summit speakers for only $500 about 3 years ago. I called the seller and we had a week of snow storms and he held them for me. People were trying to lowball him when his asking price was only 500. These speakers sell for 2500 on ebay and Far East collectors pay 5K to buy them. I am told I would have to spend 10K to better their sound and I believe it. I rented a truck and I went to buy them sight unseen across MA. With their midrange horns the vocals are top notch to be sure. They are 93dB efficient and can sing with 8 to 10 watts a channel. They sounded VERY good with my ST-70 with Mullard tubes in it and Kevin K's mods in the circuit that basically gives it a triode front end. Wired in triode we emasured 19 wpc before clipping. Good luck and start reading a LOT on the subject. Always remember that all audio is subjective. None more so than tube amplifiers and horn speakers. Always rely on your own ears to determine what sounds the best in your home stereo. John C.
Hi Danny
John C offers sage advice.
I suggest that you initially research all available options and then decide what works best for you. This may take some time, but could be quite a rewarding process and may take you away fromt he direction thaty you initially planned ..
You may want to get onto some the discussion groups like those hosted by Magnequest and Lundahl(kandkaudio), ask amp related questions which will be answered by knowledgeable and experienced people, as well as some speaker building forums if you havent yet decided on your speakers. Finally, observe all necessary precautions while building tube gear!
Remember any chain is only as strong as its weakest link-so you need to have all your components right!
George
John C offers sage advice.
I suggest that you initially research all available options and then decide what works best for you. This may take some time, but could be quite a rewarding process and may take you away fromt he direction thaty you initially planned ..
You may want to get onto some the discussion groups like those hosted by Magnequest and Lundahl(kandkaudio), ask amp related questions which will be answered by knowledgeable and experienced people, as well as some speaker building forums if you havent yet decided on your speakers. Finally, observe all necessary precautions while building tube gear!
Remember any chain is only as strong as its weakest link-so you need to have all your components right!
George
As a first project, I second the recommendation for the S5 Electronics kit amp that someone else has already mentioned. It's a nice little amp, and it's well engineered in the sense that the sound is more than you'd expect from the modest sum of its parts. The designer of that kit is George Fathauer, who was one of the pioneers of color television and also founded Antique Electronic Supply. You can find a review of the S5 Electronics amp from a sound perspective on the AudioXPress website.
Tube gear doesn't have to be expensive to sound good (in that sense it is more forgiving than solid state), and to be honest, I agree with you that some other kits are overpriced. Welborne uses boutique parts and then adds on his customary large price markup to his kits. The Bottlehead kits are reasonably priced given the level of sound you get and the hand-holding you can expect during assembly from the online forum, but you can do the same or better for less if you buy the parts yourself.
If you're just looking for a good introductory amp project and not necessarily a kit, this page is really good:
http://boozhoundlabs.com/howto/
The author essentially takes you from start to finish in designing and building a single-ended tube amp using inexpensive but quality parts (6V6 power tubes, Hammond 125 transformers), without assuming you know anything about tubes to start with. That particular amp is only about 2W per channel, but if you want something more powerful you can apply the same principles to designing a more powerful SE amp.
Tube gear doesn't have to be expensive to sound good (in that sense it is more forgiving than solid state), and to be honest, I agree with you that some other kits are overpriced. Welborne uses boutique parts and then adds on his customary large price markup to his kits. The Bottlehead kits are reasonably priced given the level of sound you get and the hand-holding you can expect during assembly from the online forum, but you can do the same or better for less if you buy the parts yourself.
If you're just looking for a good introductory amp project and not necessarily a kit, this page is really good:
http://boozhoundlabs.com/howto/
The author essentially takes you from start to finish in designing and building a single-ended tube amp using inexpensive but quality parts (6V6 power tubes, Hammond 125 transformers), without assuming you know anything about tubes to start with. That particular amp is only about 2W per channel, but if you want something more powerful you can apply the same principles to designing a more powerful SE amp.
jpchleapas said:
Thanks. I guess I'm not looking so much for a kit as a beginner schematic and a parts distributor. There was a link given earlier that had a straight forward 13EM7 1wpc and also a PP 3wpc version that looked simple enough to start with. I'll look into that as well as 6V6 one. Looks like I might be able to use allelectronics for some of the xformers.
One more question: The surplus shop I go to every now and then has a box full of random tubes, most of the numbers don't seem like the standard ones I see all the time (12AX7, EL84, 6V6, etc). Are tubes flexible like MOSFETS in that pretty much most of them can be used, it's just a matter of the params, load lines, and how well they actually work...
Thanks everyone, the info has been great.
--
Danny
Kofi Annan said:
gmilitano said:
Get to work on those you two! It really is a nice little amp and nothing I've seen touches it for the price. (I have one and it is built!) Also, do use Voltsecond's site for reference (mentioned in the Secretary General's post). Lots of good stuff to make it sound even better at very low cost.
The amp I built actually had a few of Voltsecond's mods designed into the pc board already so it appears they do pay attention and upgrade occasionally. Mine also came with ceramic sockets.
For a beginner to tubes this is a very nice introduction. And the power is pretty good as I initially was using it with a pair of Advent/1 speakers (I think they are about 87db/1W/1M). While it wouldn't make your ears bleed it did a great job at more normal (for me) listening levels.
Hi,
Best thing to do is to jot down the types you don't know much about and look up their data in a manual.
There are several well respected manuals online from RCA, Sylvania etc.
Then there's Duncan Munroe's database as well....
Naturally you'd still have to understand what these data mean but quite often the intended use of the tube gives you a clue.
Not that many tubes were made with the exclusive use for audio in mind so that still leaves a vast choice of tubes.
Classes of special purpose tubes such as carcinotrons, thyratrons, photomultipliers, etc. can safely be discarded for any normal audio applications.
Receiving tubes are often fine but not all are suitable.
DUNCAN AMPS.
Cheers,
Best thing to do is to jot down the types you don't know much about and look up their data in a manual.
There are several well respected manuals online from RCA, Sylvania etc.
Then there's Duncan Munroe's database as well....
Naturally you'd still have to understand what these data mean but quite often the intended use of the tube gives you a clue.
Not that many tubes were made with the exclusive use for audio in mind so that still leaves a vast choice of tubes.
Classes of special purpose tubes such as carcinotrons, thyratrons, photomultipliers, etc. can safely be discarded for any normal audio applications.
Receiving tubes are often fine but not all are suitable.
DUNCAN AMPS.
Cheers,
Need to learn the basics on tube systems
Sorry guys,
I am fascinated by the discussion of tube preamp/amp systems and the downstream speaker needs BUT I get lost in the terminology for the hardware.
Can anyone recommend a good source for developing a basic understanding of the "tube" space so I don't waste your time with naive questions that can be easily addressed elsewhere?
Thanks in advance,
StuHaugen
Sorry guys,
I am fascinated by the discussion of tube preamp/amp systems and the downstream speaker needs BUT I get lost in the terminology for the hardware.
Can anyone recommend a good source for developing a basic understanding of the "tube" space so I don't waste your time with naive questions that can be easily addressed elsewhere?
Thanks in advance,
StuHaugen
www.diyaudio.com has always taught me a lot. believe it or not, every question you could ask, has been asked at one point or another! just start readin'. good luck
Getting good background on building
YOu can't do better than Morgan Jones book:
"Valve Amplifiers". He has pretty much everything there.
With respect to boxes full of tubes at yard sales--best to stay away from them unless they are the standard audio type.
Build your fist project off of one of the projects on this forum, or from Morgan's book.
A simple 12AU7 line stage preamp is a good learning project--try a few different configurations like grid choke versus leak resistor, anode choke versus resistor load, current source or not. This will give you a good sense of the various options and tune your ears to what is available. Then try one of the more exotic pre-amps from this forum.
Then go to building the expensive output stage. Basically spend as much as you can afford on iron.
As for speakers--full range high efficiency is a great option. Fostex are cheap and middle class. Lowthers are fantastic for most people, but a lot more expensive. Other horn systems are great also.
YOu can't do better than Morgan Jones book:
"Valve Amplifiers". He has pretty much everything there.
With respect to boxes full of tubes at yard sales--best to stay away from them unless they are the standard audio type.
Build your fist project off of one of the projects on this forum, or from Morgan's book.
A simple 12AU7 line stage preamp is a good learning project--try a few different configurations like grid choke versus leak resistor, anode choke versus resistor load, current source or not. This will give you a good sense of the various options and tune your ears to what is available. Then try one of the more exotic pre-amps from this forum.
Then go to building the expensive output stage. Basically spend as much as you can afford on iron.
As for speakers--full range high efficiency is a great option. Fostex are cheap and middle class. Lowthers are fantastic for most people, but a lot more expensive. Other horn systems are great also.
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