My 2310 is locked up in my FX rack right now, was being used for dual-band compression and I haven’t run PA in a few years now. Maybe again when this stupid virus goes away and I finally get retired.
Judging by the surround and motor on those I’d say x-*max* is more like 4-5 mm. Limit before damage might be +/-10 to 12. Looks to me like a basic bass guitar / small PA driver, probably a native tuning of 50 to 60Hz. It would take some EQ and power to make a real sub with, and wouldn’t play that loud at 20 Hz. Maybe loud enough for a $20 driver, though.
Judging by the surround and motor on those I’d say x-*max* is more like 4-5 mm. Limit before damage might be +/-10 to 12. Looks to me like a basic bass guitar / small PA driver, probably a native tuning of 50 to 60Hz. It would take some EQ and power to make a real sub with, and wouldn’t play that loud at 20 Hz. Maybe loud enough for a $20 driver, though.
Maybe I misunderstood xmax. I always consider xmax to be the point where the driver will drop bottom without bottoming out (to reproduce sub bass frequencies without reaching the limits of its voice coil or suspension). Still, +/- 10 = 20 which was my guess.
For 22$, I'd buy one just to fill it with petrol and set it on fire while playing bass
We did that with an 8 inch poly driver when we were kids... Certain notes would make a tower of flame. Too bad poly melts so quick.
For 22$, I'd buy one just to fill it with petrol and set it on fire while playing bass
We did that with an 8 inch poly driver when we were kids... Certain notes would make a tower of flame. Too bad poly melts so quick.
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So are many musicians and nearly all of the vintage analog synthesizer enthusiasts.
My self being a cheap A$$, there are 4 Behringer synths in my rack.
Reissue Mini Moog Model D from Moog, $2200. Behringer Model D, about $225 on Ebay.
I have a Behringer D, if not I wouldn't have a "D" at all. I am the kind of person that rips into these things, figures out how they work, makes mods, and hooks up external gear to their insides. Wouldn't do that on a vintage original or high priced reissue, so Behringer is my "enabler."
My crossover is currently a small unit made for automotive use. I may get a 2310 if I can find a used one cheap.
Maybe I misunderstood xmax. I always consider xmax to be the point where the driver will drop bottom without bottoming out (to reproduce sub bass frequencies without reaching the limits of its voice coil or suspension). Still, +/- 10 = 20 which was my guess.
For 22$, I'd buy one just to fill it with petrol and set it on fire while playing bass
X-max is the “linear” limit, dictated by keeping a constant amount of wire in the gap. They often fudge this, if the motor stays linear-ish for a bit longer. It’s only going to be a few mm on a motor like that, if they are trying to get the typical 95 dB/W sensitivity. But the bottom out is the bottom out. Typical is 10 to 15 mm one way on something built like that. Takes a wider accordion surround and a large spider to get more. It certainly gets nonlinear and distorts before it hits that anyway.
I remember a set of “500 watt” Pioneers somebody brought to my shop to “fix”. They were subjected to a QSC amp and literally set on fire.
Yes, only underhung designs are incredible expensive/wasteful so used only when voice coil is VERY short, excursion is minimal and you want a very light VC anyway so reasonable in tweeters and a couple expensive mid range designs.
You will find underhung woofers in textbooks but hardly on dealer´s shelves
Normal is having voice coils wound way longer than top plate thickness, typical X Max is half the "extra" winding length based on Geometry only, because that´s when one end starts leaving the gap and so losing "push".
But magnetic lines extend a little further so you can add 1 or 2 mm (tops) to that.
Some say it´s half the gap width (typically 1.25 - 1.5 -even 1.75 mm in a very cheesy speaker) , won´t argue with them.
Beyond that, nothing BAD happens, simply speaker motor becomes non linear.
Now, "X Damage" is very different, very dangerous, happens when voice coil bottom bumps, HARD, (nothing subtle there), against the back plate.
Absolutely destructive, avoid at all costs.
That´s why car audio subwoofers, the kings of X Max (and very low efficiency) often stack 2 or 3 magnets to get enough depth; many "normal" woofers "bump" the back plate (cheap) instead of stacking magnets (expensive) to get more space.
You will find underhung woofers in textbooks but hardly on dealer´s shelves
Normal is having voice coils wound way longer than top plate thickness, typical X Max is half the "extra" winding length based on Geometry only, because that´s when one end starts leaving the gap and so losing "push".
But magnetic lines extend a little further so you can add 1 or 2 mm (tops) to that.
Some say it´s half the gap width (typically 1.25 - 1.5 -even 1.75 mm in a very cheesy speaker) , won´t argue with them.
Beyond that, nothing BAD happens, simply speaker motor becomes non linear.
Now, "X Damage" is very different, very dangerous, happens when voice coil bottom bumps, HARD, (nothing subtle there), against the back plate.
Absolutely destructive, avoid at all costs.
That´s why car audio subwoofers, the kings of X Max (and very low efficiency) often stack 2 or 3 magnets to get enough depth; many "normal" woofers "bump" the back plate (cheap) instead of stacking magnets (expensive) to get more space.
JMFahey,
You said: "Beyond that, nothing BAD happens, simply speaker motor becomes non linear."
. . . Interesting.
So, a little 2nd, 3rd, and higher order harmonic distortion from a Woofer is OK, but . . .
Heaven help the person whose tube amplifier has more than 0.5% harmonic distortion at bass frequencies.
As often is the case, peoples needs and wants do differ.
You said: "Beyond that, nothing BAD happens, simply speaker motor becomes non linear."
. . . Interesting.
So, a little 2nd, 3rd, and higher order harmonic distortion from a Woofer is OK, but . . .
Heaven help the person whose tube amplifier has more than 0.5% harmonic distortion at bass frequencies.
As often is the case, peoples needs and wants do differ.
That.
We are both oldtimers, in all meanings of the word , and have crossed paths here many times, so you already know about my disinterest (to say it diplomatically) about those heated discussions about minuscule stuff, such as capacitor colour, speaker cables, "resistor sound" , silver windings, fairydust covered components, etc. , all 140dB down IF they are real, while the REAL bottleneck lies in electromechanical components, such as speakers (or cartridges, microphones, etc.) or even transformers which struggle to stay flat and linear at all powers and within the full Audio band.
THERE is where the real Macho Man Frontier lies, not arguing minuscule and in general inaudible differences.
And real speaker frequency response is so BAD that we are never shown it, only sanitized heavily averaged versions.
We are both oldtimers, in all meanings of the word
, and have crossed paths here many times, so you already know about my disinterest (to say it diplomatically) about those heated discussions about minuscule stuff, such as capacitor colour, speaker cables, "resistor sound" , silver windings, fairydust covered components, etc. , all 140dB down IF they are real, while the REAL bottleneck lies in electromechanical components, such as speakers (or cartridges, microphones, etc.) or even transformers which struggle to stay flat and linear at all powers and within the full Audio band.THERE is where the real Macho Man Frontier lies, not arguing minuscule and in general inaudible differences.
And real speaker frequency response is so BAD that we are never shown it, only sanitized heavily averaged versions.
What he meant by *that* is driving a woofer beyond x-max (L-Hg)/2 will not cause galaxies to explode or woofers to die. You might get 30% distortion, but that’s all.
It will be well beyond 30% distortion when it hits the stops and *is* in danger, but anybody with ears ought to be able to hear that. The effects of 9000 pF of cable capacitance, even if the follower driving it is actually oscillating because of it, will be the least of your worries.