Im know this is a subjective and dangerously contentious question.
Im looking to find out what you consider the best SE integrated tube amp under 4K. I only want a SE amp, would like to have UL/Triode option. High on the list, Point to point as much as possible.
Im looking at PrimaLuna, (Like the option of being able to choose between many types of tubes) Line Magnetic (although difficult to find, cant get US distributor to respond).
What I dont want is to buy amp after amp after amp sloooowly working towards what I hope to hear. Figure 4K should keep me happy long enough...
Im looking to find out what you consider the best SE integrated tube amp under 4K. I only want a SE amp, would like to have UL/Triode option. High on the list, Point to point as much as possible.
Im looking at PrimaLuna, (Like the option of being able to choose between many types of tubes) Line Magnetic (although difficult to find, cant get US distributor to respond).
What I dont want is to buy amp after amp after amp sloooowly working towards what I hope to hear. Figure 4K should keep me happy long enough...
I am behind the times . . .
I did not know that PrimaLuna built an SE (Single Ended) amplifier.
If any manufacturer will not respond, find a local distributor.
Then, if a local distributor will not respond, find an amplifier made by a different company.
Just my opinions.
Questions to ask yourself:
1. What is the efficiency of the Elsinore speakers?
2. What is the impedance curve versus frequency of the Elsinore speakers?
How loud do you like to listen to music?
How big is your room dimensions?
Remember, 2.828Vrms into 4 Ohms is 2 Watts
2.828Vrms into 8 Ohms is 1 Watt.
So, 2.828Vrms into a speaker does not tell you how many watts it is (you have to know the speaker impedance).
An 8 Ohm speaker that is 92dB/Watt (2.828Vrms) is more efficient, versus a 4 Ohm speaker that has 94dB at 2.828Vrms.
Some speaker manufacturers, and some DIY have been known to "cheat on specs", to make speakers look more efficient, versus other speaker specs.
I will not do all the reading necessary to research # 1 and # 2 above
I did not know that PrimaLuna built an SE (Single Ended) amplifier.
If any manufacturer will not respond, find a local distributor.
Then, if a local distributor will not respond, find an amplifier made by a different company.
Just my opinions.
Questions to ask yourself:
1. What is the efficiency of the Elsinore speakers?
2. What is the impedance curve versus frequency of the Elsinore speakers?
How loud do you like to listen to music?
How big is your room dimensions?
Remember, 2.828Vrms into 4 Ohms is 2 Watts
2.828Vrms into 8 Ohms is 1 Watt.
So, 2.828Vrms into a speaker does not tell you how many watts it is (you have to know the speaker impedance).
An 8 Ohm speaker that is 92dB/Watt (2.828Vrms) is more efficient, versus a 4 Ohm speaker that has 94dB at 2.828Vrms.
Some speaker manufacturers, and some DIY have been known to "cheat on specs", to make speakers look more efficient, versus other speaker specs.
I will not do all the reading necessary to research # 1 and # 2 above
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Your in the wrong neighborhood.. If you DIY it you get great value for money..
4K gets you a nice set of silver wound output transformers.. A top plate made by Schaeffer and enough tubes to last you thousands of hours of listening.
Tubelab sells PCB”s with detailed instructions on how to build them.
Cheers,
4K gets you a nice set of silver wound output transformers.. A top plate made by Schaeffer and enough tubes to last you thousands of hours of listening.
Tubelab sells PCB”s with detailed instructions on how to build them.
Cheers,
AudioFanMan,
You need to find an audio club near you that has DIYers.
Perhaps someone will bring over an amplifier to listen to on your Elsinore speakers.
Might be a commercial amplifier, might be a DIY amplifier.
Where I live, we have Audio Crawls (but not since the pandemic).
3 hosts, 3 Hi Fi Stereo systems. 3 groups of 5 listeners, go round robin to the 3 hosts homes, and listen. We each bring a favorite CD or LP, and try a song, and/or listen to what the host plays. Then we all gather at a restaurant afterwords.
The reason I mention all this is because you said:
"what I hope to hear".
That is only something you will know when you hear it.
Most of us do not know what it is that you want to hear (very hard for you to describe, and even harder for us to interpret those words into the particular "sound" you want).
Years ago I asked a couple of Hi Fi shops if I could bring a single ended stereo amplifier I designed over to their shops, and listen to speakers they were selling. They said yes, so I listened to a 2-way ProAc Tablet Signature 2000; and a Vandersteen 2 way model. They both were satisfying to listen to.
I liked the ProAcs best, so I arranged to bring a demo pair home at closing on Saturday, and bring them back on Tuesday when they first opened again. The "insurance" was my credit card. I bought the ProAcs (a new pair).
I think if you can find some DIYers, and try just a few of their amplifiers you may be surprised at how many sound good enough for you.
Or, some other club with commercial amplifiers.
You will only know if you try.
And $4,000, yes, with DIY there should be lots of very good sounding amplifiers.
You need to find an audio club near you that has DIYers.
Perhaps someone will bring over an amplifier to listen to on your Elsinore speakers.
Might be a commercial amplifier, might be a DIY amplifier.
Where I live, we have Audio Crawls (but not since the pandemic).
3 hosts, 3 Hi Fi Stereo systems. 3 groups of 5 listeners, go round robin to the 3 hosts homes, and listen. We each bring a favorite CD or LP, and try a song, and/or listen to what the host plays. Then we all gather at a restaurant afterwords.
The reason I mention all this is because you said:
"what I hope to hear".
That is only something you will know when you hear it.
Most of us do not know what it is that you want to hear (very hard for you to describe, and even harder for us to interpret those words into the particular "sound" you want).
Years ago I asked a couple of Hi Fi shops if I could bring a single ended stereo amplifier I designed over to their shops, and listen to speakers they were selling. They said yes, so I listened to a 2-way ProAc Tablet Signature 2000; and a Vandersteen 2 way model. They both were satisfying to listen to.
I liked the ProAcs best, so I arranged to bring a demo pair home at closing on Saturday, and bring them back on Tuesday when they first opened again. The "insurance" was my credit card. I bought the ProAcs (a new pair).
I think if you can find some DIYers, and try just a few of their amplifiers you may be surprised at how many sound good enough for you.
Or, some other club with commercial amplifiers.
You will only know if you try.
And $4,000, yes, with DIY there should be lots of very good sounding amplifiers.
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Wow,
I have posted many times before, did NOT expect to see this, AWESOME...
efficiency of the Elsinore speakers = 92dB-SPL
Impedance curve versus frequency of the Elsinore speakers = See attached image
How loud do you like to listen to music = These speakers fill my room easily. 95% of my time needs less than 1/2 a watt. If no one is home and I want to shake the floors, walls and windows 15 watts clean would pretty much make me deaf.
Room dimensions, Irregular 19' x 12' wide
Elsinore's measure about 6 Ohms...
I have been seriously looking into this route as well. Im open to a kit for sure. Am I ready to order up the BOM myself, not so much. Wait 3 months for the parts to arrive, and because I ordered something wrong, wait another 2 lol..
I wish I could bring my Elsinore's anywhere... Freaking need a good strong back, which I lost some 20 years ago lol.. But I would figure something out if there was a club near by....
I dont a need subwoofer, not even a little.
Your kindness on both is WELL appreciated ! Thank you!
To be honest, I wouldn't mind putting together a well designed and time tested amp, but remember just building my x-overs having 8 shopping carts open at once, double ordering some parts because I don't understand all of the nomenclature and not ordering some parts straight out because I messed up. Than there were a few parts I ordered completely by mistake LOL. I would do this again in a heart beat, hell who doesn't need a little stock of spare parts!
The thing is, the Elsinore thread I had read in lurk mode for 2 years before I finally decided on them. Im so very glad I did, but now have been bitten by the "I need to fix my weak link" bug.
Thanks all for helping, and in any way ...
I have posted many times before, did NOT expect to see this, AWESOME...
efficiency of the Elsinore speakers = 92dB-SPL
Impedance curve versus frequency of the Elsinore speakers = See attached image
How loud do you like to listen to music = These speakers fill my room easily. 95% of my time needs less than 1/2 a watt. If no one is home and I want to shake the floors, walls and windows 15 watts clean would pretty much make me deaf.
Room dimensions, Irregular 19' x 12' wide
Elsinore's measure about 6 Ohms...
I have been seriously looking into this route as well. Im open to a kit for sure. Am I ready to order up the BOM myself, not so much. Wait 3 months for the parts to arrive, and because I ordered something wrong, wait another 2 lol..
I wish I could bring my Elsinore's anywhere... Freaking need a good strong back, which I lost some 20 years ago lol.. But I would figure something out if there was a club near by....
I dont a need subwoofer, not even a little.
Your kindness on both is WELL appreciated ! Thank you!
To be honest, I wouldn't mind putting together a well designed and time tested amp, but remember just building my x-overs having 8 shopping carts open at once, double ordering some parts because I don't understand all of the nomenclature and not ordering some parts straight out because I messed up. Than there were a few parts I ordered completely by mistake LOL. I would do this again in a heart beat, hell who doesn't need a little stock of spare parts!
The thing is, the Elsinore thread I had read in lurk mode for 2 years before I finally decided on them. Im so very glad I did, but now have been bitten by the "I need to fix my weak link" bug.
Thanks all for helping, and in any way ...
Attachments
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I still want to make a kit for a simple SE amplifier. PCB”s are dirt cheap and i can source most of the parts for something myself. But i dont do boutique parts, just stuff that is made for industrial purposes like Wima DC link capacitors made for KW power inverters. Surplus stuff and just plain metal film resistors..
But the trouble with forums is: too many drivers sitting in the passenger seat.
See attached a board that i did for somebody. Truth be told, i rushed this version and it has some errors in it.
But the trouble with forums is: too many drivers sitting in the passenger seat.
See attached a board that i did for somebody. Truth be told, i rushed this version and it has some errors in it.
Attachments
If you are from Long Island NY, then there should be a ton of dealers in your area who will call you up and do an in house demo.
It's also worth mentioning that at your budget, you should be able to get a high power triode amp and completely skip the need for UL. There are several 845 based tube amps like the Dared VP-845 that are in your budget range and will put out roughly 20 watts class A in triode mode. Just a thought.
It's also worth mentioning that at your budget, you should be able to get a high power triode amp and completely skip the need for UL. There are several 845 based tube amps like the Dared VP-845 that are in your budget range and will put out roughly 20 watts class A in triode mode. Just a thought.
Paul Joppa has provided us with a rule of thumb for mating amps and speakers. Joppa's Rule states that for "typical" listening spaces an amp/speaker combo should be capable of producing 102 dB. SPL peaks at a 1 M. distance. An 8 WPC 300B SET amp is a near miss for the 92 dB. sensitive Elsinore speakers and might be OK, if the listening space is small.
845 SET power will be enough, but there is the truly deadly dangerous B+ rail.
BTW, I lived in Forest Hills for many years/
845 SET power will be enough, but there is the truly deadly dangerous B+ rail.
BTW, I lived in Forest Hills for many years/
I grew up in Long Island .. Valley Stream.
Anyway, since this is DIY, and you seem fairly beginner, I could highly recommend some of the recent Elekit's with the Lundahl output transformers.
Elekit TU-8600S 300B SET (~8W) or TU-8800 that has switchable UL/triode and supports alot of different tubes. You get about 12.5W with KT-88.
They both come in at about half your budget and I'm fairly certain would perform better than any retail product close to that price point.
Anyway, since this is DIY, and you seem fairly beginner, I could highly recommend some of the recent Elekit's with the Lundahl output transformers.
Elekit TU-8600S 300B SET (~8W) or TU-8800 that has switchable UL/triode and supports alot of different tubes. You get about 12.5W with KT-88.
They both come in at about half your budget and I'm fairly certain would perform better than any retail product close to that price point.
And that should be pretty conservative. Mastering room SPL is nominally 85dB SPL at 0VU; allowing 20dB for peaks, that's 105dB SPL peak, which is the classically given measured peak of a modern symphony orchestra at tenth row center seats.
85dB SPL averaged is *very* loud to me to a regular room in a regular home. Anybody with a sound level meter can choose their own personal 0VU, and I'll bet it's lower than 85dB SPL.
Two speakers adding non-coherently add as +3dB, so for this 85dB SPL worst case, each speaker needs to make 85dB(0VU = average) - 3dB + 20dB (peak above average) equals 102dB SPL fairly worst case. For speakers of sensitivity 82dB SPL/1W/1M at 1 Meter we need amplifiers of +20dBW (100W). For speakers of 92dB SPL/1W/1M we need amplifiers of +10dBW (10W), etc. All this for a very loud 0VU, but at nearfield.
YOS,
Chris
85dB SPL averaged is *very* loud to me to a regular room in a regular home. Anybody with a sound level meter can choose their own personal 0VU, and I'll bet it's lower than 85dB SPL.
Two speakers adding non-coherently add as +3dB, so for this 85dB SPL worst case, each speaker needs to make 85dB(0VU = average) - 3dB + 20dB (peak above average) equals 102dB SPL fairly worst case. For speakers of sensitivity 82dB SPL/1W/1M at 1 Meter we need amplifiers of +20dBW (100W). For speakers of 92dB SPL/1W/1M we need amplifiers of +10dBW (10W), etc. All this for a very loud 0VU, but at nearfield.
YOS,
Chris
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I am hoping in my budget, to find mostly if not all point to point.
I have a yaqin 300b now, and don't believe I have ever gone past mid way on the volume. The other yaquin I have is PP and again, that dial has never gone past 3/4. On the PP there is a VU meter. I don't think I have ever gotten it bouncing....
This is the kit that's been on my Radar for the longest time. As mentioned its half my budget, and was hoping to extend the value by using up the budget if possible... And then the pesky point to point checkbox...
Whatever floats your boat i guess.
I am personally of the opinion a well designed PCB will beat a point to point amplifier in the vast majority of cases when it comes to ease of manufacture for novices cost and the fact that the designer has total control over how the amplifier is built and sounds.
There are some advantages to a PCB, like repeatability. Lets say you make a PCB and the layout is such that it sounds incredibly nice. The design is just a small file not more than one MB in size, you upload this to the Chinese PCB manufacturer and approx 10 days later you get your PCB in the mail.
However in a point to point wired amp it is different, the outcome depends too much on the skill of the builder.
One trick of the trade is to design a PCB in such a way, that there are holes in the center of every tube socket footprint so that you can use the PCB to mark out the holes on the top plate. Just take some tape and tape it to a piece of aluminium, drill some 1/8' holes and it is allmost guaranteed to fit like a glove.
I think that Elekit is exactly what you are looking for, if you follow the instructions it shouldnt be too hard to build for someone who can hold a soldering iron.
Cheers,
V4LVE
I am personally of the opinion a well designed PCB will beat a point to point amplifier in the vast majority of cases when it comes to ease of manufacture for novices cost and the fact that the designer has total control over how the amplifier is built and sounds.
There are some advantages to a PCB, like repeatability. Lets say you make a PCB and the layout is such that it sounds incredibly nice. The design is just a small file not more than one MB in size, you upload this to the Chinese PCB manufacturer and approx 10 days later you get your PCB in the mail.
However in a point to point wired amp it is different, the outcome depends too much on the skill of the builder.
One trick of the trade is to design a PCB in such a way, that there are holes in the center of every tube socket footprint so that you can use the PCB to mark out the holes on the top plate. Just take some tape and tape it to a piece of aluminium, drill some 1/8' holes and it is allmost guaranteed to fit like a glove.
I think that Elekit is exactly what you are looking for, if you follow the instructions it shouldnt be too hard to build for someone who can hold a soldering iron.
Cheers,
V4LVE
Why not just improve your Yaqin with better parts? Those Chinese amps are good value. I don't see that the Elekit is much of a step up - 12AU7 and 12AT7 inputs are pretty unimaginative. Put the money into a pair of LL1663 for your Yaqin for instance. 5K is nice for a 300b. And upgrade the input stage.
I support Andy's suggestion.
I have an MS300C that uses fixed bias on the 300Bs. Two of the B+ dropping resistors were undersized for the wattage (and failed) and the power supply capacitors were too large for long life of the 5Y3 tube. Otherwise, it is an excellent amp for the money and it has been my daily listener for several years.
The MS300B is similar but, it uses cathode bias and smaller power supply caps after the rectifier.
This is a link to someone that modified their's for a subjective improvement in performance.
Yaqin MS 300B Giantkiller for Around a Grand. – AD Audio Consultants
Steve
I have an MS300C that uses fixed bias on the 300Bs. Two of the B+ dropping resistors were undersized for the wattage (and failed) and the power supply capacitors were too large for long life of the 5Y3 tube. Otherwise, it is an excellent amp for the money and it has been my daily listener for several years.
The MS300B is similar but, it uses cathode bias and smaller power supply caps after the rectifier.
This is a link to someone that modified their's for a subjective improvement in performance.
Yaqin MS 300B Giantkiller for Around a Grand. – AD Audio Consultants
Steve
Agree with v4lve on the p2p vs PCB.
I've built the Bottlehead Mainline, it took me about a month of evenings. Cutting the wires to length, stripping, bending, it is very time consuming and requires alot of skill if you want it to look good.
On the other hand, I built the TU-8600S in about 3 evenings of the same capacity.
I've built the Bottlehead Mainline, it took me about a month of evenings. Cutting the wires to length, stripping, bending, it is very time consuming and requires alot of skill if you want it to look good.
On the other hand, I built the TU-8600S in about 3 evenings of the same capacity.
Andy, This path I am already heading down. I hoped to upgrade both of my Yaquins, for the sound and for the practice !!!
The first amp I bought was the MC13-s (pp) amp now has a switch to go between UL and Triode mode, next upgrade to it will be the Russian PIO cap, than the alps pot... Some months back, I found a schematic of the 300B with suggested parts to upgrade. Im in the process of getting the BOM for the last of that order. That said, its the first time I heard of the LL1663, and am unsure of what you mean by upgrade the input stage. Could you elaborate ?
YOU ROCK... I will jump into this link after dinner (On the table with the Mrs giving me the stink eye now lol)
Im not knocking PCB boards. Did you ever want what you want because its what you wanted and for no other reason ? lol one of my reasons (regardless if its a valid one or not) I have had PC's develop trouble over the years because of expansion and contraction. I would also guess (And it really is only a guess) that future modifications or upgrades might be a little more difficult with a PCB... Lastly, and again, I'm only telling you how I feel (as opposed to what I know), I cant see a trace on a PCB carrying as much current as a wire. Again, this is due to my own lack of knowledge, but does not mean I don't think a PCB amp cant sound freaking fantastic.. Again, I have a list of check boxes I would like to check off. If the TU-8600 winds up to be the one, I would have a few extra dollars to may be upgrade some parts...
Use Russian FT-3 coupling caps - teflon and a cleaner sound than the PIOs. Doesn't have to be Lundahl LL1663 - plenty of good OPTs in the USA. But have a look at LL1663 if you find a good price. K&K audio have Lundahls and there's a forum too.
K&K Audio / Lundahl Transformers Forum
It's usually possible to upgrade the input stage to a 300b amp either through better parts, choice of tubes or design. I don't know what's in it already - you could tell us what tubes are in it for starters.
Want want, you want.. I can feel you very well
I dont route AC carrying traces on the PCB. I just put some solder pads next to the socket. And run some twisted solid core wire under the PCB ground plane. A bit How-you doing but its better for noise.
Mechanical stress.. This is because modern valve amplifiers are sometimes made on PCB's that cost less than one single decent socket.
If you use decent sockets like Belton's for example and size the holes just right i think mechanical stress is less of a concern.
A 1/10'' trace on a 2Oz PCB has a current capability of right around 4A. We are talking less than 1/10A for most SE designs.
If you want my 2C when it comes to upgrading parts? Try to go for stuff that has some really insanely good specifications. I buy parts for their technical specifications and i have some unusual solutions to modifications..
Arcotronics coupling capacitors. Are really good. Low inductance high ESR film caps made for industrial applications.
From a friend that is into measuring stuff.. I know that the old paper capacitors had for example higher ESR and ESL than the ones previously mentioned.
The fun of DIY is making changes and listening. Instead of splurging on some copper capacitors made in someone Shed. You can also order like 5 different values of very small value inductors for less than a hamburger. and solder them on the PCB. Listen for a while and keep fiddling with it untill you are happy. Cause the entire point of DIY is satisfaction in your own achievement and value for money. And if you can trick yourself with a placebo, why not get the most cost-efficient placebo?
Capacitors are not voodoo and everyone that claims superior sound or whatnot is selling you a bag of goods. If all these exotic materials made any sense from an engineering point of view. The serious industrial suppliers would stock them.
PCB boards are so incredibly cheap... I just checked. A top of the line quality PCB measuring 10x15'' is about 35USD after shipping plus taxes. For that price you can literally just keep one in reserve with some sockets just in case...
Try to keep your feet on the ground.
Just my honest 2C.
Cheers,
V4LVE
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