NOS square transformers, commonly used on tube amplifiers, like Hashimoto Tangos for example, loose they performance over the years? and what about used ones?
What makes transformers like this loose performance?
I'm in contact with a amplifier builder, that like to use this transformers, NOS and used ones, and I'm thinking about in order an amp with him...
Thanks for the infos sir.
No physical item is removed from the physical law of entropy. True, some achieve entropy slower than others. The rate is often related to storage conditions - too hot or cold, too damp, etc.
However, capacitors have known, measurable parameters. There is no good reason to specify "NOS" components when a newly manufactured item of the same specification exists.
Unless, of course, you are absolutely certain that the older part will make your device perform more to your tastes. In which case, you will invariably be correct.
Why should they? Aging of the core material? How effective is that really.
Years ago I saw an aging vs permeability graph on the Finemet material, but I'm not able to find it anymore.
Hashimoto and Tango should be made from silicon steel anyway?
In a summary, I doubt a transformer should loose performance over the years, exceptions could be deterioration of the core material (rust) or dielectric moisture absorption during storage. The second is curable with slight baking to get the moisture out.
Years ago I saw an aging vs permeability graph on the Finemet material, but I'm not able to find it anymore.
Hashimoto and Tango should be made from silicon steel anyway?
In a summary, I doubt a transformer should loose performance over the years, exceptions could be deterioration of the core material (rust) or dielectric moisture absorption during storage. The second is curable with slight baking to get the moisture out.
Oh cool! very nice to know this about the transformers.
When looking inside a customized tube amp, that was built with some vintage caps on the signal path, and when talking with the designer of that amp, what's your advices, about some things that is essential to ask the designer? that his replies will indicate, that if in fact, he have experience and knowledge about this design approach, of implement some vintage caps on the signal path?
I'm asking this, because i'm in contact with a designer that uses some vintage caps in the amps, and when I asked why? he just replied me this:
"enerally, vintage parts will make sound better, mystery and more analog sound. Vintage parts was made from very good material and more carefully than mordern part, so it is better quality than current parts"
Many thanks for your thoughts.
^totally agree with this. As long as the transformer is stored in dry atmospheric conditions and not exposed to huge fluctuations in temperature, its effective life is huge.
Exceptions would be locations like Rotorua, NZ, which is a live volcanic field, and anywhere near the sea. These atmospheric conditions eat metals.
As I understand it the preference for NOS OPT's might stem from a perception that transformers were better made in the old days, however material science has moved on a bit since the 50's, therefore there is no reason why a contemporary tfmr shouldn't be as good if not better.
That said the is a lot of misconception, lies, BS and utter crap written about all things audio all mixed up in the subjective winky wonky brains of space monkeys. If you want to go and spend extra dosh buying old caps, old solder!!!! and old out of spec resistors in the belief they imbue a magic to the music, fair play to you. I can then sell all the old crap I strip out of amps, flog it on ebay and buy decent contemporary components.
Having said that there's a case for NOS valves to a certain degree mainly from their ability to operate at the extremes of datasheet specs.
Lastly why are all the amps on linked site $1600? That seems a low arbitery price.
Andy.
That said the is a lot of misconception, lies, BS and utter crap written about all things audio all mixed up in the subjective winky wonky brains of space monkeys. If you want to go and spend extra dosh buying old caps, old solder!!!! and old out of spec resistors in the belief they imbue a magic to the music, fair play to you. I can then sell all the old crap I strip out of amps, flog it on ebay and buy decent contemporary components.
Having said that there's a case for NOS valves to a certain degree mainly from their ability to operate at the extremes of datasheet specs.
Lastly why are all the amps on linked site $1600? That seems a low arbitery price.
Andy.
The thing to learn from this is that the person is not honest. Or, more charitably, has a limited understanding of the history of manufacturing.
Older components tend to have been made less exactly, with less quality control, and poorer materials. It was common, for example, to produce passive components with 20% accuracy tolerances right up to the 1980s.
Forget the handwaving and bone pointing - amplification is a very basic electronic process at its heart. The parameters to achieve good quality reproduction are well-known and none of them involve aging the components.
If any of this a is "mystery" you should be concerned.
More helpfully, a good craftsman will be able to produce clean-looking products. Soldered joints will be shiny, evenly shaped and obviously secure. Wiring will look logical, tidy, secure. Components will be laid out neatly, easily accessible for servicing if required. There will be a clear schematic diagram, preferably with critical voltages noted and all components listed and identified.
Take a look at the images in the photo gallery on this site. Even without a technical background you can quickly learn to identify the items produced with knowledge, care and attention and a lot of practise.
Tango and Tamura both had permalloy lines and it is perhaps less clear how permalloy behaves 50 years later or after a mechanical shock. Never noticed or measured any performance degradation in those though.
Otoh i've seen a few really old, pre WW2 mains transformers that have developed wire insulation issues. Anecdotally, those were all British.
Thanks for your advice, very insightful.
What is the site that you mentioned?
By the way, appreciate if you take a look, and tell me what do you see here? about the craftsmanship, build quality, soldering work, choice of components...
OTOMON Laboratory (音門ラボ)
I found the amps somehow interesting, but I must say that I'm not have deep knowledge about electronics to judge this work with property...
I was thinking about the possibility, of the designer's statement about my question of the vintage components implementation, that I quoted earlier, be in fact, be more related with not have much patience, in talk with noob guys like me about the vintage components implementations on amps?
I read mixed feedbacks about his works I must say... some marvelous, but also found some not so good...
Wish I could have the knowledge to look at his works and judge by myself, any advices what I must look for inside this amps?
Many thanks!
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This site! The Tubes/Valves forum has a sub-forum where members put photos of their personal builds
Mechanical layout is tidy. I would do it differently, but that is somewhat subjective. I can't identify a safety groud on a couple of his pieces, but that is probably my poor eyesight and the low-resolution images. Heater wiring running through the middle of the chassis is not best practise, but hum levels are the true test of that and I assume he has got that sorted.
Without detailed schematics its difficult to comment on components.
Maybe. Is that the sort of person you want building an item for you?
I read mixed feedbacks about his works I must say... some marvelous, but also found some not so good...
Everyone has a problem item from time to time. The real issue is how that problem gets resolved.
I guess my question is "why this guy?" what is it about his builds that you engage with?
Many thanks![/QUOTE]
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Well, when I see his works, and there's a lot on his website, I noticed that are so much different designs, different clones, a loft of different design approaches on customized and special ordered amps, some crazy stuff as the use of very old western electric wires, transformers from lot's different periods, 50's 60's 70's, even 40's I think, some amps with new components too, strange tubes that i never saw, that sometimes makes me conclude that the guy must know very well what he's doing...
I must say that some positive feedbacks like this influenced my interesting too...
"Until now, Ken has been the best kept secret in audio. When I say audio, I mean vintage and bespoke Japanese audio MANIA. The man is a master of this mysterious art, a mad genius confined to his dark, smoke-filled workshop. Take a look at the selection of items he lists on his website. Some seem like junk, but are in fact carefully selected, exquisite national treasure goods. He can make a fully bespoke amplifier using any of the legendary parts to your exact specification and budget. I personally have experience with two type 71A amplifiers, the latter of which was custom designed. I asked for a somewhat dark sounding piece with lots of drama and emotion, which was delivered in spades. I asked for a specific design using natural wood and raised copper plates, and he allowed me to participate in the design process on the level of layout. You can see the finished piece in a recent post to the website. Finally, it was surprisingly affordable. I was so happy with the result that I ordered a matching phono preamp, which is currently in the works. Overall, an extremely unique and satisfying experience, a throwback to the golden age of mania."
Also this one:
"Hi, My friends and myself have purchased 6 amplifiers from Ken and have 2 more being built at the moment. We've also bought a few tonearms and cartridges from him, and he even bids for us on Japanese auctions sometimes. The vintage parts you see on his website are either New Old Stock or used, some are in better shape than others. As with all vintage gear, there is a risk of malfunction. But many serious audiophiles prefer vintage because it offers superior sound for less money (and sometimes for more money, like Western Electric). In terms of the wiring, the 1940's Western wiring is a problem. We had to fix 3 of the amplifiers he built because the connections came loose. Shipping from Japan also doesn't help. However, he can easily use modern wiring instead, which is less fragile. Overall, the build quality is not as good as modern components. It is not very reliable. He offers a warranty if something breaks and covers free shipping back to Japan, but that takes a long time and can break again during second shipping. But the sound quality is much better than any modern amplifier that costs twice or three times as much. The sound can only be described as magical, like there is a ghost in the machine. So it is always a difficult choice in the end. Hope this helps! Cheers!"
Here's a bad one:
"I had a parallel single ended 2A3 built by Ken Uesugi at Ottoman, aka Soundgate, and received it in January 2019. I paid $4000 for the very best components he had. It was supposed to be modeled after the Kondo Niero. He didn't even follow the schematic that he sent to me via email. I also paid $400 to have it shipped from Japan. Upon receipt I realized that something was loose in the amp and opened it up to find a nightmare. I took the amp to a technician to fix it and had to spend another $500 just to get it to work. The workmanship was absolutely the opposite you would expect from a Japanese amp builder, the soldering joints were so bad that capacitors were falling off. Nothing was secured. The technician and an amp builder both said that they would not even plug it in for fear of an electrical fire. I have some friends that build amps and they thought it was shameful. Another friend bought a 50 tube amp from him and only paid $1400 for a SET amp. Same issues. Could not get it to work, had to spend money to fix it. Meanwhile I spoke to PayPal and they suggested I try to work it out with him. So I tried that with no success because he kept telling me to try other tubes. Nothing worked. So he offered to fix the amp if I paid the shipping back to Japan, another $400. I did not want the amp to be fixed because of how bad the soldering and layout was. I tried to compromise with him, but no success there as well. I have a very long email string documenting everything as well as photos. Let the buyer beware. If you buy his amps, you will for sure receive an inferior attempt. The transformers were Tango, but everything else was just average parts. Be careful out there."
So, what I found so far are just extremes, very nice and very bad.
I also must say, that appears to me, when I see a lot of his different designs implementations, that his amps appears to have a lot of character, is quite difficult to explain, is captivating in some way, and of course, the best way would be to listen to some ones...
In fact, I'm in contact with him, discussing the project of to build a power amp and preamp, that I'm thinking about to use with the backloaded horns speakers that I will build...
After a few more e-mails, I must say he is being very polite and more accessible to answer my questions, quite reasonable and flexible prices too, also it can be a good deal for me, as import an amp by mail order where I live is impossible, due crazy taxes right now, but I have the option of a japanese friend bring for me as a gift...
Anyway...
When I look at the soldering work, some times I found they "rustic", and this worries me a little, but I not an expert on judge a soldering work, it's just a impression that I have sometimes, just a guess...
What do you think?
Sometimes, I feel that i need more knowledge, more repertoire about tube amplifiers designs and specs, in order to talk with him about build the amp for my needs...
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Well, after our last conversations, i'm becoming more confident about his work..
My last questions:
Thanks for the tip about this vintage Luxman, appears to be a great bang for the buck..
But my interest is the option of a customized power amp, I really inclined for a SET with 10W, or Single Ended Parallel with more power, this are better options for the sound of my full range loaded back horns, the speakers are very sensitive, around 98db, but as I told you, maybe I will move for a bigger listening room in a near future, so I don't want to risk running out of power.
How would be the configuration of a SET with 10W, or Single Ended Parallel with more power, for 2000 dollars exactly? (you told me on a previous e-mail that could be around 2000 till 3000 dollars)
For 2000 dollars, tell me some details about the design:
transformers types, brands, configuration, wires types, capacitors, and other relevant parts... I would like to know some details about the parts and design that you will use to reach 2000 dollars price.
His last reply:
"With your requirement, I will build 300B SE tube amplfier for you. Input stage and secondary stage is 717A, output stage is 300B. All transformers are new special order made ISO(TANGO) All condenser are new ones made in Europe Wiring are America made teflon wire with silver plate.
Price is 2000USD+ shipping fee
About layout, If you make your decision of order, I will make some layout and you can choose one of them, you can also make your own design about layout."
Any recommended questions, that are important be made about the amp's design? components, circuit, tubes, and etc... some factors that you guys feel that is important to discuss with more depth, about the design and building process?
Many thanks, best regards.
My last questions:
Thanks for the tip about this vintage Luxman, appears to be a great bang for the buck..
But my interest is the option of a customized power amp, I really inclined for a SET with 10W, or Single Ended Parallel with more power, this are better options for the sound of my full range loaded back horns, the speakers are very sensitive, around 98db, but as I told you, maybe I will move for a bigger listening room in a near future, so I don't want to risk running out of power.
How would be the configuration of a SET with 10W, or Single Ended Parallel with more power, for 2000 dollars exactly? (you told me on a previous e-mail that could be around 2000 till 3000 dollars)
For 2000 dollars, tell me some details about the design:
transformers types, brands, configuration, wires types, capacitors, and other relevant parts... I would like to know some details about the parts and design that you will use to reach 2000 dollars price.
His last reply:
"With your requirement, I will build 300B SE tube amplfier for you. Input stage and secondary stage is 717A, output stage is 300B. All transformers are new special order made ISO(TANGO) All condenser are new ones made in Europe Wiring are America made teflon wire with silver plate.
Price is 2000USD+ shipping fee
About layout, If you make your decision of order, I will make some layout and you can choose one of them, you can also make your own design about layout."
Any recommended questions, that are important be made about the amp's design? components, circuit, tubes, and etc... some factors that you guys feel that is important to discuss with more depth, about the design and building process?
Many thanks, best regards.
Sorry for all the confused questions about this topic, ask judgements about the amp's builder, and etc, I really appreciate all the efforts from all of you to help me understand some technical stuff about the topic anyway, I think this topic ca be closed or deleted, if everybody agrees, or keep it as the moderatos suggested, as maybe at least, it can provide helpful infos for someone that researches this subjects.
On my next threads I will try to organize better my questions and not to be so anxious about trying to lear everything at once...
All the best, for everybody, thanks!
On my next threads I will try to organize better my questions and not to be so anxious about trying to lear everything at once...
All the best, for everybody, thanks!
Vintage and NOS components are a source of an impressive amount of misinformation.
The laminations used in modern transformers is generally speaking better than what was used in the 50s and 60s. Where vintage transformers can and often do have an edge is in the winding techniques- most vintage transformers are layer wound (costly, but typically they have better coupling than the cheap nylon bobbins)
Some (but not all) vintage output transformers used very good interleaving techniques that would be cost prohibitive these days due to the labor and skill required. These interleaving techniques resulted in exceptional high frequency performance- this makes it possible to apply more negative feedback without stability issues.
The only real advantage I can think of for using a vintage power transformer is that some of the more esoteric values aren't available these days- not typically an issue in an audio amplifier. For example, it's rather difficult to find a new filament transformer that is insulated for 20kV.
Capacitors is where the real BS begins. Coupling caps from the 40s, 50s and 60s DO sound different... because they have failed. They have serious leakage issues because the materials used are deteriorating. Many of them will outright short at high voltages. Use some decent-quality modern poly caps of a reasonable voltage rating. I like the orange drops because the cases don't burn as easily with a soldering iron.
The big oil-filled caps (usually square) are a bit of a different story. They can last a very, very long time, and they are very costly to buy new. That said, a lot of the old ones are made with PCB oil, and these should not be used and must be disposed of properly. In audio, however, there are very few instances where oil-filled caps are necessary. They make a lot of sense in the 1kV+ range.
For all of those who believe that the ancient Western Electric wire (or whatever other NOS esoteric wire) is magical, I cannot think of any scientific explanation as to why that could possibly be. I will happily change my opinion once I see an explanation that is grounded in reality, but until then I am of the opinion that cables are an issue of L, C and R and nothing more. Also, am I the only one who thinks that cloth-covered wire is an incredible pain in the neck to work with? Seriously, if you're going to use wire that is expensive and hard to strip, why not just use Teflon wire?
The laminations used in modern transformers is generally speaking better than what was used in the 50s and 60s. Where vintage transformers can and often do have an edge is in the winding techniques- most vintage transformers are layer wound (costly, but typically they have better coupling than the cheap nylon bobbins)
Some (but not all) vintage output transformers used very good interleaving techniques that would be cost prohibitive these days due to the labor and skill required. These interleaving techniques resulted in exceptional high frequency performance- this makes it possible to apply more negative feedback without stability issues.
The only real advantage I can think of for using a vintage power transformer is that some of the more esoteric values aren't available these days- not typically an issue in an audio amplifier. For example, it's rather difficult to find a new filament transformer that is insulated for 20kV.
Capacitors is where the real BS begins. Coupling caps from the 40s, 50s and 60s DO sound different... because they have failed. They have serious leakage issues because the materials used are deteriorating. Many of them will outright short at high voltages. Use some decent-quality modern poly caps of a reasonable voltage rating. I like the orange drops because the cases don't burn as easily with a soldering iron.
The big oil-filled caps (usually square) are a bit of a different story. They can last a very, very long time, and they are very costly to buy new. That said, a lot of the old ones are made with PCB oil, and these should not be used and must be disposed of properly. In audio, however, there are very few instances where oil-filled caps are necessary. They make a lot of sense in the 1kV+ range.
For all of those who believe that the ancient Western Electric wire (or whatever other NOS esoteric wire) is magical, I cannot think of any scientific explanation as to why that could possibly be. I will happily change my opinion once I see an explanation that is grounded in reality, but until then I am of the opinion that cables are an issue of L, C and R and nothing more. Also, am I the only one who thinks that cloth-covered wire is an incredible pain in the neck to work with? Seriously, if you're going to use wire that is expensive and hard to strip, why not just use Teflon wire?
What would be some capacitors brands that are made today, too look for when choosing this components to build a tube amp? high end stuff but not crazy expensive, if you can indicate me some high price and others more low cost but still high end, I appreciate... the japanese and european are the best ones?
the designer that I'm talking about is thinking to use special order made iso tango transformers (i think iso tango transformers are back in business) ISO TRANSFORMERS – 管球アンプ用トランス Audio Transformers for Tube Amplifiers
Thanks
the designer that I'm talking about is thinking to use special order made iso tango transformers (i think iso tango transformers are back in business) ISO TRANSFORMERS – 管球アンプ用トランス Audio Transformers for Tube Amplifiers
Thanks
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