E86C/EC86 is nice. EF184 is so cheap you ought to try that one as well, one of the best tubes ever made from a technical standpoint. (i don’t care about scalpers 100M+ where made)
E80L in triode CCS loaded could be quite nice/ i think the EL3n is quite similar to that one. but these don’t get you the gain you want i think.
E80L in triode CCS loaded could be quite nice/ i think the EL3n is quite similar to that one. but these don’t get you the gain you want i think.
I've tried E80L and it's nice for a 9 pin tube. EL3n is I think very similar to EL33 and that's a good sound, a little better. EL41 is similar in rimlok. E86C is one I don't know.
<To be dogmatic means to stick firmly and stubbornly to one opinion, to be bound by rules, to act according to the teachings. Often it is also about the steadfast, often irrational implementation of a certain idea or doctrine. So anyone who clings to preconceived beliefs and doctrines is dogmatic. Such people are unwilling to consider another opinion or to question their own belief, even if it is wrong or could be refuted.>
What, other than this description, could characterize this project better?
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My daily amp at present uses Lundahl LL1682/50mA OPTa which are 5K into 5R. Not exactly what you'd expect for a 300b but it sounds a lot nicer than the LL1664s I have which at 3K are pretty much what you would expect. I have two pairs of O-Netics OPTs, Level One 3.5K and the Wright Sound one, 3.5K. I'm very attached to those. Plus a pair of NP Acoustics amorphous core 3.5K OPTs. These are all on individual chassis, and the input section is on a different individual chassis with NP amorphous core plate chokes, so I can and do switch the output and input stages around to try and extract as much magic as i can out of the combinations.
I'd say all of these were good quality without going into boutique OPTs or NOS Tango and Tamura. I have EH 300b, which again aren't boutique but are pretty decent. I'm now using a pair of very rare driver tubes which shall remain nameless since I want some more of them. I would say I've reached a sound that gives me a lot of listening pleasure. I doubt that it would be cost effective to upgrade much further, even though there are no doubt higher levels of quality out there if money isn't an issue. I may be wrong here of course. The weak link may be the EH 300bs but it could cost hundreds to upgrade those and I'm not dissatisfied with what I have.
This is the first time in my life that anyone has called me dogmatic! I think anyone who knows me well would laugh their heads off at the idea.
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ECC808 wil beat a 6SL7 in lifetime and noise and is more linear. But i suspect you design with your ears instead of your eyes, distortion sounds nice. I can listen all day to an amp that produces a fair but of 2nd harmonic distortion so i understand. But i actually like the technical stuff more than actually building amplifiers. I spend most of my time making little PCB”s for tube amplifier building. i think i have posted about 40% of what i designed online.
ECC40 is something you should try. These are the last of the roundplates.
For outputs you could try the 42 and 43. Or the EL3n /EL11
ECC40 is something you should try. These are the last of the roundplates.
For outputs you could try the 42 and 43. Or the EL3n /EL11
Andyjevans,
in the end, everyone decides which direction one will choose in this audio labyrinth.
I just wanted you to give a bump to overthink your design goals.
Most audiophiles think or want for a cleaner sound. Not many who wish for other qualities in audio. I can build and design you a 300B amp that is the cleanest you've ever heard, but it doesn't justifies this tube.
With that cheap asian replica your on a different track compared to a real WE.
It's better to stay on this track, this is a modern sound track. All the world strives to those sound goals but the 300B intention was to give other sounds a favor. Thats why its being loved by asian audiophiles long before the western society understood what qualities this tube has.
Your budget is very limited, we talk about only parts to purchase. Maybe you could never have bought a real ready made amp of quality for this money, parts are so much cheaper as complete amplifiers of quality. And with your limited budget you try to get the best out of it.
Thats completely legitimate. I just don't understand whats the problem is in designing a one gain stage amp. If you have the knowledge, just buy the tubes and give it a run.
Otherwise, there are those guys, who are in need of many others to tell them how to design an amp. For that basic knowledge, there are books and before internet, everyone has used them. I never ask people how this or that sounds, because those are individual experiences which aren't transferable from one individual to another. In the end, the real high end is such a strange thing that everyone makes different experiences, have different tastes.
You have to make your own experiences, I made mine and it seems, that we are on a different journey, with different goals.
in the end, everyone decides which direction one will choose in this audio labyrinth.
I just wanted you to give a bump to overthink your design goals.
Most audiophiles think or want for a cleaner sound. Not many who wish for other qualities in audio. I can build and design you a 300B amp that is the cleanest you've ever heard, but it doesn't justifies this tube.
With that cheap asian replica your on a different track compared to a real WE.
It's better to stay on this track, this is a modern sound track. All the world strives to those sound goals but the 300B intention was to give other sounds a favor. Thats why its being loved by asian audiophiles long before the western society understood what qualities this tube has.
Your budget is very limited, we talk about only parts to purchase. Maybe you could never have bought a real ready made amp of quality for this money, parts are so much cheaper as complete amplifiers of quality. And with your limited budget you try to get the best out of it.
Thats completely legitimate. I just don't understand whats the problem is in designing a one gain stage amp. If you have the knowledge, just buy the tubes and give it a run.
Otherwise, there are those guys, who are in need of many others to tell them how to design an amp. For that basic knowledge, there are books and before internet, everyone has used them. I never ask people how this or that sounds, because those are individual experiences which aren't transferable from one individual to another. In the end, the real high end is such a strange thing that everyone makes different experiences, have different tastes.
You have to make your own experiences, I made mine and it seems, that we are on a different journey, with different goals.
You misunderstand me here when I say I generally found 2 stages "cleaner" than 3. I found that adding a stage tended to add some degree of colourations. That's a simplistic statement, and just based on what I was hearing.
But my goal isn't "clean", otherwise I might use PP instead. Again, a simplistic statement and there's a big thread on exactly this. As a musician who played in orchestras and smaller groups for a lot of my life, my goal is to hear from my audio system the true timbre and tonalities of the acoustic instruments I'm very familiar with. Bassoons, oboes, ride and crash cymbals, snare drums, vocals, Steinways and so on. They all have distinctive and unmistakable timbres. Reproducing these led me to SE amps and DHTs and a small number of IDHTs. So please substitute "acoustic timbre" for "clean". That's always been my design goal and never changes. And as an instrumentalist (bass, keyboards) the timbre of your own instrument is one of the most important things in your musical life. That's the sound you live with from day to day and do all your music making through. No wonder instrumentalists spend thousands and thousands on their instruments and lust after even better ones.
The only way I can satisfy myself about reaching the kind of timbre I always look for is to build and listen to as many different tubes, topologies and parts I can, and I must easily have gone through 100 different versions of the same amp. A bit like violinists trying out violins. If the Asians you speak of have timbre as a goal, then we're on the same path. When you come close to getting the true timbre of acoustic instruments right it's actually thrilling - at least for me. The sound of a clarinet or bassoon when it's exactly right is - for me - about as good a feeling as listening to all my favourite composers and artists.
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Here's a beautiful video on Tiffany Poon choosing a piano from a Steinway showroom. It's exactly what I'm talking about.
Upgrade! Picking a New Steinway Model B Grand Piano 😀🤗 | Tiffany Vlogs #107 - YouTube
Upgrade! Picking a New Steinway Model B Grand Piano 😀🤗 | Tiffany Vlogs #107 - YouTube
I have to say, having read the whole thing - and have taken it all into account - to me, it does read as dogmatic.
Someone said this just now and was shut-down; I come forth for no other reason (let us reason, let us be reasonable - no?).
I do it this way, and other ways are not good coz I say, oh yeh, I tried them all, and here is the 'result' - Andy.
Sorry Andy, I got daughters too, we all shed and love the same, but call BS all the same. 'Oh but, look at me coz... um .., yeah okay'.
For a hundred years now, triodes are not new, and its clear that you have no/no understanding of the simple interactions; Cin, Rp, Mu.
Bye.
Can I get coffee served in a jam-jar, yet?
SM
Someone said this just now and was shut-down; I come forth for no other reason (let us reason, let us be reasonable - no?).
I do it this way, and other ways are not good coz I say, oh yeh, I tried them all, and here is the 'result' - Andy.
Sorry Andy, I got daughters too, we all shed and love the same, but call BS all the same. 'Oh but, look at me coz... um .., yeah okay'.
For a hundred years now, triodes are not new, and its clear that you have no/no understanding of the simple interactions; Cin, Rp, Mu.
Bye.
Can I get coffee served in a jam-jar, yet?
SM
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I don't know if you've really followed what I'm saying here. I don't have a "result", just a whole series of ongoing experiments which I've documented step by step. Some worked better than others, and there are doubtless more possibilities to come. Nobody has "tried them all" in the world of tubes.
When I talk of "timbre" I'm just a working musician who lives in the world of instrumental timbre and considers it an important goal. Ask any other musician - I'm not unusual in any way. I try and make it clear that this is just one possible goal for an audio system. Other common ones are soundstage, bass slam, reproduction of low frequencies, clean sound at high volume levels, measured distortion etc etc...it's a long list. I'm just offering one perspective.
I didn't start all this stuff about dogma and for me it's a red herring, and I've no real idea why it came up in the first place. We're all experimenting here and trying new things, and this seems to me very "undogmatic". I was a working jazz musician for 12 years and unless you can listen and learn from your colleagues and come up with an unending stream of new ideas and improvisations you won't survive in that environment.
Whitney Balliott described jazz as "The Sound of Surprise" in his excellent book, and that's a good way of looking at it - when you step onto the bandstand you have no idea what notes are going to be played or what style they will be played in. If you look at synonyms for "undogmatic" you find "synonyms: free-thinking, broad-minded, inclined to respect views and beliefs that differ from your own".... That sounds about right to me.
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I don't know if you've really followed what I'm saying here. I don't have a "result", just a whole series of ongoing experiments which I've documented step by step. Some worked better than others, and there are doubtless more possibilities to come. Nobody has "tried them all" in the world of tubes.
When I talk of "timbre" I'm just a working musician who lives in the world of instrumental timbre and considers it an important goal. Ask any other musician - I'm not unusual in any way. I try and make it clear that this is just one possible goal for an audio system. Other common ones are soundstage, bass slam, reproduction of low frequencies, clean sound at high volume levels, measured distortion etc etc...it's a long list. I'm just offering one perspective.
I didn't start all this stuff about dogma and for me it's a red herring, and I've no real idea why it came up in the first place. We're all experimenting here and trying new things, and this seems to me very "undogmatic". I was a working jazz musician for 12 years and unless you can listen and learn from your colleagues and come up with an unending stream of new ideas and improvisations you won't survive in that environment.
Criticism
I see a lot of this regarding Andy Evans experimenting, with one individual in particular claiming they could easily design the ultimate 300B amp merely on the basis of data sheet specs and evidently using high quality iron. Yet this individual offers up nothing in the way of a concrete example they have actually implemented
I rather suspect that this individual is fearful that doing so would open himself up to criticism. Its not good enough to say that each individual hears what they hear then in the same sentence criticize someone for using what in his opinion are barely adequate materials
I see a lot of this regarding Andy Evans experimenting, with one individual in particular claiming they could easily design the ultimate 300B amp merely on the basis of data sheet specs and evidently using high quality iron. Yet this individual offers up nothing in the way of a concrete example they have actually implemented
I rather suspect that this individual is fearful that doing so would open himself up to criticism. Its not good enough to say that each individual hears what they hear then in the same sentence criticize someone for using what in his opinion are barely adequate materials