This could easily go OT, but as I remember it people were claiming that two identical things were different. When pressed, the people claiming this usually began to expose their confusion about digital data and meta-data. The only 'explanation' which would fit the alleged facts is that within each data file there is a little goblin who randomly fiddles with the sound, so that identical data presented via the same replay chain somehow remembers where it came from so sounds different. I don't believe in little goblins.analog_sa said:
Going back to rectifiers, it is easily possible that an amp will be sensitive to supply voltage although I would expect this to be more of a problem with one employing marginal techniques such as poor choice of bias point. No need to invoke audiophile mumbo-jumbo when a straightforward "gross simplification" explains things.
You seem to be missing the point about how 2 identical sources that are found to sound the same after a couple of comparisons, didn't seem to sound the same on the first listen. That it takes our audio memory a few tries to get the sound fully rememberable, enough to make a high quality judgement about equivalency.
Yes...
If a different rectifier changes the B+ then that gets passed on to the output. But who's to say if you or I can detect any difference of 5% B+ change... The most likely change would be a slightly higher or lower volume level and that could easily be too quickly interpreted as lost highs or lows or "slower" or "muddy" or "flabby" or "thin" or "fast" or "airy" or ....more BS.
I am an electrical engineer. It is my belief that similar (same type number) rectifier tubes in good condition should not sound different in a well designed amplifier. Granted stuffing wildly different tubes (5U4, 5AR4, 5Y3) into the same amplifier will produce audible changes due to the supply voltage and dynamic resistance change.
Several years ago I made a custom headphone amplifier for a customer based on a Tubelab SE design. The output tubes were 01A's, 30's or 31's. The rectifier tube was a 5AR4 which was loafing at the 100 mA total draw of this amp. B+ was 125 to 130 volts. The customer had a NOS Mullard 5AR4 and a used one. I had some Sovteks, Chinese, and several flavors of NOS and used vintage American brands. He was convinced that the Mullard's were magical and that's what he wanted to use in the amp.
We performed a bunch of tests over a period of two days with his headphones (3 different kinds). He could reliably pick out his rectifier tubes even though he could not see what I was doing, when music that was familiar to him was played. He could even pick out his tubes about 75% of the time when I played something he had never heard before (vintage rock).
We changed positions (he swapped tubes while I listened, and I could not tell the difference on either music. He was so convinced of the Mullard's superiority that he gave me the used one when he left with the amp. I still use an old Sylvania in my amps.
I have tried Mullard VS Sylvania VS Sovtek at a couple listening sessions with mixed results.
Several years ago I made a custom headphone amplifier for a customer based on a Tubelab SE design. The output tubes were 01A's, 30's or 31's. The rectifier tube was a 5AR4 which was loafing at the 100 mA total draw of this amp. B+ was 125 to 130 volts. The customer had a NOS Mullard 5AR4 and a used one. I had some Sovteks, Chinese, and several flavors of NOS and used vintage American brands. He was convinced that the Mullard's were magical and that's what he wanted to use in the amp.
We performed a bunch of tests over a period of two days with his headphones (3 different kinds). He could reliably pick out his rectifier tubes even though he could not see what I was doing, when music that was familiar to him was played. He could even pick out his tubes about 75% of the time when I played something he had never heard before (vintage rock).
We changed positions (he swapped tubes while I listened, and I could not tell the difference on either music. He was so convinced of the Mullard's superiority that he gave me the used one when he left with the amp. I still use an old Sylvania in my amps.
I have tried Mullard VS Sylvania VS Sovtek at a couple listening sessions with mixed results.
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This is a valuable post - it says many things about how we evaluate amplifiers, their parts and the sound we experience. And the futility of many arguments.
This was nearly 10 years ago. It opened my eyes to what some people can hear, or maybe know what to listen for.
This whole thing got started when I was visiting my brother who lives about 250 miles away in a very upscale community. One of his neighbors was explaing how he had just returned from Hong Kong where he had just purchased a new stereo for $5000. My brother had a comment about it being made of gold, and the neighbor replied "no it's made of glass". OK, I'm interested. I explained that I knew something about stereos made with glass things. He was still looking for a small stereo for his bedroom. I loaned him a TSE with 45's.
Short version. I sold him a TSE for his main system, the $5000 300B amp went to the bedroom and I made him the headphone amp. He drove here twice and stayed overnight in a hotel so he could have it tweaked to his tastes. Did he have exceptional hearing, know what to listen for, or just too much money. My guess is all 3.
He had never heard Metallica before but after a few minutes he was picking out his rectifier tube, and telling me exactly what to listen for, but I still couldn't hear it. The first two Santana albums worked good too. Some other rock music "contained no cues". So.......
He also claimed to be able to pick interconnects.....possible. We did not discuss power cables or speaker wire.....good thing because I don't believe in that BS. He did not say anything about the fact that the entire design session was conducted with a power cable pirated from an old Sony computer monitor (very heavy grade). No speaker wire was used, it was a headphone amp.
Very slight is the term I should've used. What it means is that it is critical down to a fraction of an inch. Location being exactly the same is not precise enough. The position has to be exactly the same as well which isn't a likely scenario when human bio-mechanics is involved.
Evenharmonics;
ears hear differently than microphones. Where microphones hear boosts and cuts on frequency response, ears hear reflections and diffused reverberation of still the same sound. That's why Denon Audissey makes sound much better than other equalizers that try to compensate variations caused by microphone position.
ears hear differently than microphones. Where microphones hear boosts and cuts on frequency response, ears hear reflections and diffused reverberation of still the same sound. That's why Denon Audissey makes sound much better than other equalizers that try to compensate variations caused by microphone position.
Lynn Olson did a lot of measurements on Rectifiers when he was building his 300B amp.
The Amity, Raven, and Aurora
from the page:
"Moving on to the main B+ supply, I first tried a 5R4-GY rectifier (a traditional choice for 300B circuits), but was dismayed with the arc-overs and poor reliability in several examples. Maybe they were old and weak, but this sort of failure should never happen in the first place. By contrast, TV damper diodes, including the New-Old-Stock 6C*3 family and the new Svetlana 6D22S, have more-than-ample peak curves, and derating for continuous use gives more headroom in current and voltage than the traditional tube rectifiers seen in 2A3 or 300B amps. The low voltage drop (15V), huge peak currents (2A), and slow warm-ups (30 seconds) are just additional bonuses.
Matt Kamna also demonstrated a technique for zooming in on the waveform on the power-transformer secondary (about 10V/div on the scope screen). The rough appearance around the zero-crossing was very obvious with solid-state diodes. HEXFRED's gave a small improvement, but conventional tube rectifiers looked much smoother, and the TV damper diodes were by far the smoothest of all. So even in low-current preamp applications, TV damper diodes give the least noise. I know from experience in the Tektronix Spectrum Analyzer division that it's much easier to eliminate noise at the source than filter it afterward. If there was an even quieter device, I'd use that, but as far as I know, TV damper diodes are the quietest from the viewpoint of switching noise. Considering that the main B+ supply is switching five hundred volts, this is not a small consideration, since switch-noise is radiated in all directions, into the B+ supply, the interior of the chassis, and back into the power cord."
The page is a good read.
The Amity, Raven, and Aurora
from the page:
"Moving on to the main B+ supply, I first tried a 5R4-GY rectifier (a traditional choice for 300B circuits), but was dismayed with the arc-overs and poor reliability in several examples. Maybe they were old and weak, but this sort of failure should never happen in the first place. By contrast, TV damper diodes, including the New-Old-Stock 6C*3 family and the new Svetlana 6D22S, have more-than-ample peak curves, and derating for continuous use gives more headroom in current and voltage than the traditional tube rectifiers seen in 2A3 or 300B amps. The low voltage drop (15V), huge peak currents (2A), and slow warm-ups (30 seconds) are just additional bonuses.
Matt Kamna also demonstrated a technique for zooming in on the waveform on the power-transformer secondary (about 10V/div on the scope screen). The rough appearance around the zero-crossing was very obvious with solid-state diodes. HEXFRED's gave a small improvement, but conventional tube rectifiers looked much smoother, and the TV damper diodes were by far the smoothest of all. So even in low-current preamp applications, TV damper diodes give the least noise. I know from experience in the Tektronix Spectrum Analyzer division that it's much easier to eliminate noise at the source than filter it afterward. If there was an even quieter device, I'd use that, but as far as I know, TV damper diodes are the quietest from the viewpoint of switching noise. Considering that the main B+ supply is switching five hundred volts, this is not a small consideration, since switch-noise is radiated in all directions, into the B+ supply, the interior of the chassis, and back into the power cord."
The page is a good read.
Rectifiers
If you do not use double blind A-B testing methods it is impossible to tell the difference. The time you take to change rectifiers is far longer than the brain's ability to "remember" the slight sonic differences.
The double blind testing method has been proved time and time again
If you do not use double blind A-B testing methods it is impossible to tell the difference. The time you take to change rectifiers is far longer than the brain's ability to "remember" the slight sonic differences.
The double blind testing method has been proved time and time again
Do you really believe that example is somehow relevant to optical reproduction? Or are you just trying to be insulting?
Just another sound...
The batteries are capacitors at the end of the day...would you like to hear lead acid or nickle metal or etc ...or do you bypass the batteries with a cap what kind of cap....it goes on..
Regards
M. Gregg
I like linux (Puppy is good)..prefer it to windows...FLAC..is better...sorry off topic..
Regards
M. Gregg
Quote:
That's why Denon Audissey makes sound much better than other equalizers that try to compensate variations caused by microphone position
Well, that not correct. Dennon has a very user friendly product however it is not one of the premier products on the market. Ever checked the EQ after using a product like Denon?
That's why Denon Audissey makes sound much better than other equalizers that try to compensate variations caused by microphone position
Well, that not correct. Dennon has a very user friendly product however it is not one of the premier products on the market. Ever checked the EQ after using a product like Denon?
Kind of curious here ....some seem to think that rectifiers all sound the same therefore do all caps and all resistors likewise sound the same? Maybe since we have moved our heads 1/8 from the listening position that if we could duplicate the same listening position then there would be no difference in the sound between different caps either.
I suppose,
It depends on what you like...Old sound...Old caps, old resistors..
Why can't cheap HIFI sound like a good HIFI?? If the components are cheaper and better...I don't believe that they design it to be rubbish..they would have a world beating product..
So back to rectifiers...if nothing makes a difference (buy cheap parts) we are all kidding ourselves because you don't need an o/p Tx to get tube sound with SS do you?
Because something would have to be distorted to have a difference between one and the other..
Regards
M. Gregg
It depends on what you like...Old sound...Old caps, old resistors..
Why can't cheap HIFI sound like a good HIFI?? If the components are cheaper and better...I don't believe that they design it to be rubbish..they would have a world beating product..
So back to rectifiers...if nothing makes a difference (buy cheap parts) we are all kidding ourselves because you don't need an o/p Tx to get tube sound with SS do you?
Because something would have to be distorted to have a difference between one and the other..
Regards
M. Gregg