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-   -   Sequence in which grounds are connected (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tubes-valves/17094-sequence-grounds-connected.html)

Saurav 29th June 2003 09:21 PM

Well... everything in the main chassis is on a PCB that I bought as part of the kit, so there's not much I can do to change that. I could build a better filter in the PS chassis, of course. I just stuck to the original kit design for this phono stage, but I'll keep that in mind for future projects. Thanks for the advice.

Joel 6th July 2003 07:25 PM

mystic ground
 
This extreme attention to grounding is a carryover from RF work, where it does in fact make a difference. The small losses even from tube sockets can add up there. But in audio frequencies, and at audio amp signal voltage levels, it makes utterly no difference. I've tried it every which way but loose, and there is no difference in my ear, or on the scope.

fdegrove 6th July 2003 08:34 PM

Re: Mystic Ground...
 
Hi,

Quote:

This extreme attention to grounding is a carryover from RF work, where it does in fact make a difference.
Nothing mystical about it and I always welcome carryovers from the more experienced engineers...

The difference in a well designed starground on performnce are obvious to my ears and scope.

It also plays a major role in stereo imaging...not that it would surprise me that some people would claim that no such thing either.

We've already discussed the benefits of stargrounding here many months ago, I see little point in rehashing it to a single non-believer once again.

Unless we have some very brave members?

Cheers, ;)

jcarr 6th July 2003 09:45 PM

Dear Frank:

>We've already discussed the benefits of stargrounding here many months ago.<

Could you provide any links that you think are worthwhile? I have been a firm proponent of stargrounding for years, but am always willing to study and learn more about the subject.

>I see little point in rehashing it to a single non-believer once again.<

Time is precious, and so are our energies. No point in wasting either commodity. Frequently, the time that we expend on arguing would be much more profitably spent on studying more and adding to our own knowledge and capabilities.

regards, jonathan carr

fdegrove 6th July 2003 10:46 PM

Hi,

Jonathan,

Quote:

Could you provide any links that you think are worthwhile?
I did some searching locally but the engine didn't seem to find the appropriate item, indicating to me that it was either OT, too long ago or something else entirely.

I also doubt that we discussed anything you don't already know but, still, if I ever I stumble upon the appropriate thread, I will notify you.

Flying on the wings of memory I'd say I, amongst others, proposed the benefits of this technique as a means to improve SNR and as an aside benefit this would also yield more pinpoint, stable imaging...naturally stargrounding alone won't bring this, as I'm sure you know.

What I have been doing for years is trace the lowest return current activity points and ground there...YMMV.

In my applications, just plain and simple P2P, nothing remotely touching the complexity of your own multilayer designs, this always worked for what I wanted to achieve...

There's much more to be said, surely, as stated before, stargrounding is just one of those "little details" that are NOT indicated on diagrams, yet can make or break the perceived performance of an already fine circuit.

Which is just my way of saying that one could hand out a schematic to any number of engineers and they'd all invariably end up returning different sounding product.

Cheers,;)

Joel 6th July 2003 11:02 PM

It's a good thing we don't all consider discussion of an opposing opinion a "waste of time".

Also, you'd be very interested to see the grounding methods employed in my Fisher 400 receiver. :nod:

jcarr 7th July 2003 12:30 AM

Dear Frank: I did a quick Google search, using "common impedance" & "circuit" as the search terms. "Mutual impedance" & "circuit" would also work just as well, I reckon.

Here are some links with relatively succinct descriptions.

http://www.radioing.com/eengineer/pcb-tips2.html

http://www.manufacturing.net/ctl/ind...cleid=CA188300

http://www.enme.umd.edu/EMCPL/links.htm

>naturally stargrounding alone won't bring this, as I'm sure you know.<

Not only that, but reliance on star-grounding only in the context of relatively wide-bandwidth circuits is likely to lead to oscillation problems. See, for example,

http://wwwcompass.cern.ch/compass/te..._grounding.pdf

Assuming that the designer is comfortable with a multitude of stabilization and construction techniques, star-grounding can offer a useful performance advantage. But if not, the bandwidth of the circuit should probably be kept as low as possible, and possibly the use of star-grounding should be questioned, if not avoided altogether.

hth, jonathan carr

Ryder 7th July 2003 02:17 AM

Links
 
Re the request for links on star grounding:

* R.G. Keen, Star Grounding in Tube Amplifiers: http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folder...nd/stargnd.htm]

* Randall Aiken, Star Grounding: http://www.aikenamps.com/StarGround.html

Cheers
Craig Rdyer


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