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Old 16th January 2010, 10:33 AM   #1
harwoodspark is offline harwoodspark  England
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Default 5670

I have a circuit diagram for a tube phono stage (Audio Innovations 500 ) using a pair of ECC83s. I also have a Chinese phono stage pcb using a pair of 5670s which frankly sounds abyssmal. The actual circuit is quite similar to that for the ECC83s. I'm thinking of stripping the components off the Chinese board and building up the Audio Innovations circuit but keeping the 5670s as the pinouts for the two valves are very different. I'm just trying to use stuff that I already have and hell, it's good fun anyway
The electrical characteristics for the two valves are not that different apart from Ra which is 80,000 for the 83 but only 6,400 for the 5670.

Can anyone advise me on this or has anyone any comments.

I'll try and post the circuit diagrams if I can but I tried this morning and I was struggling for some reason.
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Old 16th January 2010, 10:53 AM   #2
Svein_B is offline Svein_B  Norway
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I suspect that the 5670 / 2C51 / WE396A might not give the best performance at the very low currents typical in ECC83 / 12AX7 circuits.

Gain is a is a little lower than ECC83, and I would say it is more like a ECC81 / 12AT7.


If you want to "clone" the AI RIAA you shoulod probably try to use the same tubes.


SveinB.
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Old 16th January 2010, 11:34 AM   #3
harwoodspark is offline harwoodspark  England
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Thanks Svein.

Circuit diagrams,

5670 phono stage;

Click the image to open in full size.

AI 500 phono stage;

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 16th January 2010, 11:50 AM   #4
Eli Duttman is offline Eli Duttman  United States
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Those 2 circuits are completely different "animals". The AI circuit uses passive equalization, while the 5670 uses active equalization inside a NFB loop.

Frankly, I'm unenthusiastic about the AI circuit, in an unmodified state. The drive capability of the 'X7 triode is POOR.
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Old 16th January 2010, 03:17 PM   #5
harwoodspark is offline harwoodspark  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli Duttman View Post
Those 2 circuits are completely different "animals". The AI circuit uses passive equalization, while the 5670 uses active equalization inside a NFB loop.

I understand that, I think what I was getting at was that I could adapt the Chinese board to the AI circuit reasonably easily as long as I left the 5670s in.


Frankly, I'm unenthusiastic about the AI circuit, in an unmodified state. The drive capability of the 'X7 triode is POOR.
Can you expand on that and would the AI circuit work with 5670s instead of ECC83s with maybe some changes to some component values?
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Old 16th January 2010, 04:15 PM   #6
Eli Duttman is offline Eli Duttman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harwoodspark View Post
Can you expand on that and would the AI circuit work with 5670s instead of ECC83s with maybe some changes to some component values?

The 'X7 triode is high RP and it runs at very low current. Both of those factors make it a POOR driver of downstream loads. The "classic" RCA circuit, which the AI is a variation on, requires the downstream load to be not less than 250 KOhms. "Can't fight its way out of a wet paper bag."

You certainly can use passive EQ with 5670s. The "lumped" EQ method both RCA and AI employed is well understood. However, 5670 μ is only 35. That suggests CCS loading is needed to get sufficient gain. O/P impedance will be lower than that obtained with a 'X7 section, but is still likely to be troublesome. A buffering voltage follower at the O/P is (IMO) in order.

Frankly, I have my doubts about turning the sow's ear into a silk purse.
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Old 17th January 2010, 09:40 AM   #7
Cobra2 is offline Cobra2  Norway
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That 5670 circuit reminded me on the MingDa 767, I rebuilt mine to use 6DJ8, and used this circuit; RJM Audio - Tube passive phono preamplifier with better result.

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Old 17th January 2010, 11:11 AM   #8
harwoodspark is offline harwoodspark  England
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Thanks Arne, I appreciate the post. It could be similar to the Ming Da. It's a Lite Audio CT-2.

Click the image to open in full size.

The reason I wanted to stick with the 5670s was so I could re use the board as the pinouts for ECC88s and 83s are very different. Eli D reckons the AI circuit is flawed and I'll go along with that. I'm no electronics engineer so I need all the help I can get from you guys.
If I was to go with the circuit in the link you posted Arne, maybe I could remove the valve bases from the CT-2 board and make up some L brackets and put the bases on their side. I can then wire any pin to any hole in the board. Or should I should start afresh with the valve bases on an L bracket and hard wire? I'll think about that one.
I like the idea of 6DJ8/ECC88 as my power supply has 12.6 volts @ 500 mA for the heaters so I could put the valve heaters in series The specs say 6.3 volts A @365 mA for the 88 so that should be good and I can keep the original power supply.

How did your rebuilt phono stage sound? We're you happy with it?

Si.
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Old 17th January 2010, 11:20 AM   #9
Cobra2 is offline Cobra2  Norway
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The RJM sounds good, and is easy to hardwire. Gain could been higher, but then again, it would need other (or more) tubes/parts...

Arne K
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Old 17th January 2010, 11:45 AM   #10
Eli Duttman is offline Eli Duttman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harwoodspark View Post
Thanks Arne, I appreciate the post. It could be similar to the Ming Da. It's a Lite Audio CT-2.

The reason I wanted to stick with the 5670s was so I could re use the board as the pinouts for ECC88s and 83s are very different. Eli D reckons the AI circuit is flawed and I'll go along with that. I'm no electronics engineer so I need all the help I can get from you guys.
If I was to go with the circuit in the link you posted Arne, maybe I could remove the valve bases from the CT-2 board and make up some L brackets and put the bases on their side. I can then wire any pin to any hole in the board. Or should I should start afresh with the valve bases on an L bracket and hard wire? I'll think about that one.
I like the idea of 6DJ8/ECC88 as my power supply has 12.6 volts @ 500 mA for the heaters so I could put the valve heaters in series The specs say 6.3 volts A @365 mA for the 88 so that should be good and I can keep the original power supply.

How did your rebuilt phono stage sound? We're you happy with it?

Si.

"A picture is worth a 1000 words." The photo provided shows what appears to be a full function preamp, as too much stuff is present on the 2nd PCB to be merely a PSU. Another photo of the jack set, from the outside, could be informative too.

A LOT of work will go into changing the RIAA PCB. The "surgery" involves (among other things) cutting traces, drilling holes, adding jumper wires, and drawing traces with a special pen that contains a Silver bearing composition. Moving away from the 5670s adds very little to the effort.

For the life of me, I can't fathom why people are surprised when inexpensive Chinese guano turns out badly.
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