I believe alternatives are available from both TJ and KR albeit at much higher prices and continued availability is not assured. The KR types interestingly have oxide filaments and use about 1/3 the current of the older thoriated tungsten type.
This would of course be the time I finally decided to design & build a 211 amplifier..
I am in the process of procuring enough VT4C hopefully to last indefinitely.
This would of course be the time I finally decided to design & build a 211 amplifier..
I am in the process of procuring enough VT4C hopefully to last indefinitely.
True, as far as the standard carbon type are concerned I'm not exactly sure what has become critically depleted...?
However in regards to the M and W (metal plates types) which are audibly far superior to the common B type, there were apparently numerous hurdles for Super TnT to jump in order to achieve an acceptable success rate for tubes meeting specification, many simply did not pass and had to be discarded.
I believe due to the complex and expensive metallurgy involved, it was not a profitable outcome...but you can read more below as excerpted from their website, which I'll post in two parts, the second part explaining the production process of their excellent metal plate 845 tubes is quite interesting:
Latest News-22-7-08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In order to solve the global supply crisis of 845s, SuperTNT decide to collect 100'000 USD from the global market, which will be paid off in one year plus with 15 percent interest rate as the high returns.
Originally ,Shuguang intended to produce nearly 10,000pcs 845s this year to meet the continue growing market demand, while there were some supply problems with the parts of the tubes from last year, and even until now they haven't been solved. So all the product of 845,211 and 805 were closed down when the last inventory of spare parts were finished up in this first half year. Judging from the current situation as we known, it is difficult for Shuguang to solve this problem, at least in a relatively long time.
From the technical point of view, SuperTNT has the ability to solve these problems, however, because the development of new products will consume a large mounts of funds, and SuperTNT don’t have enough capital to deal with all the issue of 845s simultaneously. So we hope to raise about 100'000 USD Funds, which will be used for the development and production of 845 K and 845P ,and 845 W may also have the possibility to re-production again, even 845 M's second-generation products also be mentioned onto the development agenda.
If SuperTNT got the funds timely, then SuperTNT can provide the whole market about 1,200PCS 845s tubes of various models, which is far from meeting the needs of the market. SuperTNT can guarantee that the funds will be used safely and reasonably and you will get your benefit rapidly, for all the SuperTNT 845s always had been sold up in a short time.
SuperTNT hope that we can raise the necessary funds successfully, otherwise on the thorium tungsten carbide filament 845 tubes markets, we can only saw the expensive Certon 845.
If you have any interest in this investment or if you have any good suggest on the development of 845s, welcome to contact with us at any time. We are appreciated for your any advice.
Contact:
Tel :86-731-2182671
Fax :86-010-950507-756132
E-mail: SuperTNT@263.net
However in regards to the M and W (metal plates types) which are audibly far superior to the common B type, there were apparently numerous hurdles for Super TnT to jump in order to achieve an acceptable success rate for tubes meeting specification, many simply did not pass and had to be discarded.
I believe due to the complex and expensive metallurgy involved, it was not a profitable outcome...but you can read more below as excerpted from their website, which I'll post in two parts, the second part explaining the production process of their excellent metal plate 845 tubes is quite interesting:
Latest News-22-7-08
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In order to solve the global supply crisis of 845s, SuperTNT decide to collect 100'000 USD from the global market, which will be paid off in one year plus with 15 percent interest rate as the high returns.
Originally ,Shuguang intended to produce nearly 10,000pcs 845s this year to meet the continue growing market demand, while there were some supply problems with the parts of the tubes from last year, and even until now they haven't been solved. So all the product of 845,211 and 805 were closed down when the last inventory of spare parts were finished up in this first half year. Judging from the current situation as we known, it is difficult for Shuguang to solve this problem, at least in a relatively long time.
From the technical point of view, SuperTNT has the ability to solve these problems, however, because the development of new products will consume a large mounts of funds, and SuperTNT don’t have enough capital to deal with all the issue of 845s simultaneously. So we hope to raise about 100'000 USD Funds, which will be used for the development and production of 845 K and 845P ,and 845 W may also have the possibility to re-production again, even 845 M's second-generation products also be mentioned onto the development agenda.
If SuperTNT got the funds timely, then SuperTNT can provide the whole market about 1,200PCS 845s tubes of various models, which is far from meeting the needs of the market. SuperTNT can guarantee that the funds will be used safely and reasonably and you will get your benefit rapidly, for all the SuperTNT 845s always had been sold up in a short time.
SuperTNT hope that we can raise the necessary funds successfully, otherwise on the thorium tungsten carbide filament 845 tubes markets, we can only saw the expensive Certon 845.
If you have any interest in this investment or if you have any good suggest on the development of 845s, welcome to contact with us at any time. We are appreciated for your any advice.
Contact:
Tel :86-731-2182671
Fax :86-010-950507-756132
E-mail: SuperTNT@263.net
Part 2-
# The nobleman of 845-SuperTNT845W.
In all 845 models, perhaps only immediate production of SuperTNT 845W deserves to be called nobleman. Of course, RCA 845 is still the king of all 845, but the old King has become a legend. It is difficult to return the old glory of the downfallen tubes kingdom if there are no number of new works.
Now production 845, in addition to Shuguang common 845 and 845 B (don't know whether Cetron 845 still be produced, if production is the case, then Cetron 845 also included, follow we assume that Cetron 845 has stopped) continue to obey the standard 845 production techniques ,other 845 number are some technical changes. Some of which change viewed from the technical point, they were unreasonable, and some have yet to be tested in actual use. For example,in view of the principle it is unreasonable to use filament oxides in 845(and perhaps some manufacturers use a particular technology,but from what we know that they have not. ). As for the metal anode, it depends on how the actual situation.
The production technology of Shuguang 845 may not be perfect, but these 845 have a prominent advantage of using the carbonation thorium tungsten filament which other 845 production can't have. 845 C is the first metal anode 845 in Shuguang's recent 845 production , It sounds very good,but the only pity is that its rated anode dissipation power ranges from 50 to 65 watts (many customers can't grasp the Power dissipation measurement method strictly , it was said that 845C can reach 70W). SuperTNT 845M maybe the first metal anodes 845 whose power dissipation over 90W.Moreover SuperTNT 845M's anode power dissipation can be achieved even more than 100W if processed well. SuperTNT 845M only have to improve the its voice.
In order to improve the voice performance of SuperTNT 845M, we have proposed to develop SuperTNT 845W. The initial 845 W sample produced a dozens. There were one pair fully qualified detection and their test results were very satisfactory: rated power dissipation were better than 845 M ,the voice sounds more comprehensive. We sold this pair 845W to a United States client,and the feedback were very good. Unfortunately, the initial 845W's anode exhaust was not ideal. With the effort,at last,we can produced a final small group 845W of 60 W power dissipation about, Of course, good sound, good performance of the anode exhaust, but the only flaw was the Power dissipation can't meet design objectives. SuperTNT 845M not only has a voice need to improve, on the other hand,its production process is too difficult. Particularly,its anode material is very unstable in the course of processing,In good condition,the pass rate is about 80 percent, in general about 50%, even it almost 0%. Even out of the processing, welding is also a daunting thing, So,some SuperTNT 845M anode welding appearance are not very good. All of these defective prompted us to develop better 845. And now the most urgent task is to optimize 845 W.
The immediately model SuperTNT 845W has been able to be called 845 nobleman,for there is no any compromise in its design and materials. In the small and medium-sized power tubes, almost all the tube anode are using the "Instead" materials, Why? In view of the design. Nickel is the most ideal anode materials for small and medium-sized tubes.(In amplifiers,845 power dissipation is big, while compared with a wider range application of tubes, it is not very great power, can only be regarded as middle excessive), The reason to use an "instead" anode material, for the key Nickel is too expensive. Now the vast majority of small and medium-sized tubes are used Nickel-coated iron or aluminum-coated iron as the metal anode material. Processed in line with the criteria for tubes,the Nickel prices is around one sixth of silver, and on the other hand,the anode material in 845W is relatively more, about 0.6 mm thick. The payment of 10 kilograms of pure Nickel processed basically equals the payment of a ton of pure iron for 845C, So probably SuperTNT 845W is the first metal anode 845 using pure Nickel for anode without any compromise. Apart from the material itself, we achieved carbonized material in such a thick, which can substantially improve the anode power dissipation, and on which 845 C has a obvious defect . All the "Instead" materials mainly save a lot in cost, and also simplifies the production process, or they have a particular highlight the performance in some aspects, For example, 845 M anode material can provide a tremendous rated power dissipation. SuperTNT 845W use the anode materials POUR Nickel which is the most suitable for small and medium-sized tube for the first time. Perhaps, its voice worth our looking forward to hearing.
Besides there is no any compromise on anode material selection and processing. The Senior Version SuperTNT 845W also used gold plating process on grid. Gold-plated grid not only to looks nice or show luxury. If possible, using carbonation grid the effect may be better. Of course, if for both beautiful and useful,we still chose Gold-plated. Gold-plated grid prevent the emergence of reverse grid current, which can prevent grid electron emission under high-temperature situation, and make the grid signal control anode current changes much better. Of course, under normal circumstances, the grid without Gold-plate won't have a direct impact on voice, When the tubes are used in the AMP which dissipation is a little lower, for example, the power dissipation is about 75 watts, the grid wouldn't be any problems without Gold-plated. For price-sensitive customers,,SuperTNT 845W without Gold-plated is also a good choice.
As for the filament of SuperTNT 845W, we still use carbonization thorium tungsten filament, which performance is the best for 845. From the above presentation, we did not do anything to compromise in 845W design and manufacture. As the tube's sound quality and rated power dissipation which enthusiasts are most concerned about,they would be defined in a few days later.
Incidentally, here we would like to inform some news about 845K. It is hardly to get the new best 845 by the general design and technology. SuperTNT 845K required to ensure anode dissipation power stable at 100W, sound performance can be achieved at least 845 C-level or even better. From the design point of view , it need to use some of the very process to ensure the performance and indicators, We are still not able to guarantee accurately that SuperTNT 845K can develop successfully, which required us to develop some new equipments to ensure the success of the new technology.
# The nobleman of 845-SuperTNT845W.
In all 845 models, perhaps only immediate production of SuperTNT 845W deserves to be called nobleman. Of course, RCA 845 is still the king of all 845, but the old King has become a legend. It is difficult to return the old glory of the downfallen tubes kingdom if there are no number of new works.
Now production 845, in addition to Shuguang common 845 and 845 B (don't know whether Cetron 845 still be produced, if production is the case, then Cetron 845 also included, follow we assume that Cetron 845 has stopped) continue to obey the standard 845 production techniques ,other 845 number are some technical changes. Some of which change viewed from the technical point, they were unreasonable, and some have yet to be tested in actual use. For example,in view of the principle it is unreasonable to use filament oxides in 845(and perhaps some manufacturers use a particular technology,but from what we know that they have not. ). As for the metal anode, it depends on how the actual situation.
The production technology of Shuguang 845 may not be perfect, but these 845 have a prominent advantage of using the carbonation thorium tungsten filament which other 845 production can't have. 845 C is the first metal anode 845 in Shuguang's recent 845 production , It sounds very good,but the only pity is that its rated anode dissipation power ranges from 50 to 65 watts (many customers can't grasp the Power dissipation measurement method strictly , it was said that 845C can reach 70W). SuperTNT 845M maybe the first metal anodes 845 whose power dissipation over 90W.Moreover SuperTNT 845M's anode power dissipation can be achieved even more than 100W if processed well. SuperTNT 845M only have to improve the its voice.
In order to improve the voice performance of SuperTNT 845M, we have proposed to develop SuperTNT 845W. The initial 845 W sample produced a dozens. There were one pair fully qualified detection and their test results were very satisfactory: rated power dissipation were better than 845 M ,the voice sounds more comprehensive. We sold this pair 845W to a United States client,and the feedback were very good. Unfortunately, the initial 845W's anode exhaust was not ideal. With the effort,at last,we can produced a final small group 845W of 60 W power dissipation about, Of course, good sound, good performance of the anode exhaust, but the only flaw was the Power dissipation can't meet design objectives. SuperTNT 845M not only has a voice need to improve, on the other hand,its production process is too difficult. Particularly,its anode material is very unstable in the course of processing,In good condition,the pass rate is about 80 percent, in general about 50%, even it almost 0%. Even out of the processing, welding is also a daunting thing, So,some SuperTNT 845M anode welding appearance are not very good. All of these defective prompted us to develop better 845. And now the most urgent task is to optimize 845 W.
The immediately model SuperTNT 845W has been able to be called 845 nobleman,for there is no any compromise in its design and materials. In the small and medium-sized power tubes, almost all the tube anode are using the "Instead" materials, Why? In view of the design. Nickel is the most ideal anode materials for small and medium-sized tubes.(In amplifiers,845 power dissipation is big, while compared with a wider range application of tubes, it is not very great power, can only be regarded as middle excessive), The reason to use an "instead" anode material, for the key Nickel is too expensive. Now the vast majority of small and medium-sized tubes are used Nickel-coated iron or aluminum-coated iron as the metal anode material. Processed in line with the criteria for tubes,the Nickel prices is around one sixth of silver, and on the other hand,the anode material in 845W is relatively more, about 0.6 mm thick. The payment of 10 kilograms of pure Nickel processed basically equals the payment of a ton of pure iron for 845C, So probably SuperTNT 845W is the first metal anode 845 using pure Nickel for anode without any compromise. Apart from the material itself, we achieved carbonized material in such a thick, which can substantially improve the anode power dissipation, and on which 845 C has a obvious defect . All the "Instead" materials mainly save a lot in cost, and also simplifies the production process, or they have a particular highlight the performance in some aspects, For example, 845 M anode material can provide a tremendous rated power dissipation. SuperTNT 845W use the anode materials POUR Nickel which is the most suitable for small and medium-sized tube for the first time. Perhaps, its voice worth our looking forward to hearing.
Besides there is no any compromise on anode material selection and processing. The Senior Version SuperTNT 845W also used gold plating process on grid. Gold-plated grid not only to looks nice or show luxury. If possible, using carbonation grid the effect may be better. Of course, if for both beautiful and useful,we still chose Gold-plated. Gold-plated grid prevent the emergence of reverse grid current, which can prevent grid electron emission under high-temperature situation, and make the grid signal control anode current changes much better. Of course, under normal circumstances, the grid without Gold-plate won't have a direct impact on voice, When the tubes are used in the AMP which dissipation is a little lower, for example, the power dissipation is about 75 watts, the grid wouldn't be any problems without Gold-plated. For price-sensitive customers,,SuperTNT 845W without Gold-plated is also a good choice.
As for the filament of SuperTNT 845W, we still use carbonization thorium tungsten filament, which performance is the best for 845. From the above presentation, we did not do anything to compromise in 845W design and manufacture. As the tube's sound quality and rated power dissipation which enthusiasts are most concerned about,they would be defined in a few days later.
Incidentally, here we would like to inform some news about 845K. It is hardly to get the new best 845 by the general design and technology. SuperTNT 845K required to ensure anode dissipation power stable at 100W, sound performance can be achieved at least 845 C-level or even better. From the design point of view , it need to use some of the very process to ensure the performance and indicators, We are still not able to guarantee accurately that SuperTNT 845K can develop successfully, which required us to develop some new equipments to ensure the success of the new technology.
So the rumour that Shuguang would stop production of the 845 tube seems so far to be true. Sino, Valve Art and Golden Dragon 845 tubes are all manufactured by Shuguang so they will no doubt disappear as well.
Richardson Electronics owns the Cetron brand and according to their website the 845 is still available and manufactured, but they are expensive and very hard to get. There are two boutique brands of 845 tubes, namely KR Audio and Fullmusic. Both of these are quite expensive, and KR audio recently said that they will stop selling tubes to anyone but owners of their amps.
So that leaves an interesting question, will any other manufacturer try to fill the gap left by Shuguang? If there indeed is a marked demand for 10,000 tubes, then about the only manufacturer who could meet this would be New Sensor.
Comments?
Richardson Electronics owns the Cetron brand and according to their website the 845 is still available and manufactured, but they are expensive and very hard to get. There are two boutique brands of 845 tubes, namely KR Audio and Fullmusic. Both of these are quite expensive, and KR audio recently said that they will stop selling tubes to anyone but owners of their amps.
So that leaves an interesting question, will any other manufacturer try to fill the gap left by Shuguang? If there indeed is a marked demand for 10,000 tubes, then about the only manufacturer who could meet this would be New Sensor.
Comments?
Well it looks like Shuguang is still producing both the 845 and 211 tubes.
Most of the tube stores seem to have the copper base 845b in stock and there are certainly plenty on eBay.
Also, I have noticed some 845 c (metal plate) tubes around. I am not sure whether they are old stock or of recent production but there has been a few of them on eBay lately. The Sophia Electric website claims to have some of 'Summer 2009' production - so it is possible that Shuguang has produced a limited run of these tubes?
Anyhow good news - the 845 is a wonderful tube.
Rob
Most of the tube stores seem to have the copper base 845b in stock and there are certainly plenty on eBay.
Also, I have noticed some 845 c (metal plate) tubes around. I am not sure whether they are old stock or of recent production but there has been a few of them on eBay lately. The Sophia Electric website claims to have some of 'Summer 2009' production - so it is possible that Shuguang has produced a limited run of these tubes?
Anyhow good news - the 845 is a wonderful tube.
Rob
An update: the graphite plate Shuguang 845 B are available again, new 2009 production, I purchased a a pair and they are excellent.
I have also purchased a pair of metal plate Shuguang 845, excellent tubes too, slightly smoother sound. Production was re-started in January 2009.
I believe Shuguang makes these tubes in once-a-year batches, so it is quite normal to have periodical shortages, then a large quantity of tubes show up on eBay and from online vendors. Stock up!
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