Hi KYW
I am sure they measure flat. So do a lot of other componets (PIO caps) which may still sound cloudy and airless. Of course this is only subjectively true. Your recommended 50ohm is a far cry from the 10kohm manufacturer's spec though. This kinda rules tube stages out, doesn't it? Gee, i thought 600ohms was tough, but 50ohm?!
A friend from SA recently paid you a visit and was duly impressed with the sound. Just curious if you were using Mk1s?
I can see this discussion raising the value of the Mk1 and turning them into 'collectors' items
regards
peter
I am sure they measure flat. So do a lot of other componets (PIO caps) which may still sound cloudy and airless. Of course this is only subjectively true. Your recommended 50ohm is a far cry from the 10kohm manufacturer's spec though. This kinda rules tube stages out, doesn't it? Gee, i thought 600ohms was tough, but 50ohm?!
A friend from SA recently paid you a visit and was duly impressed with the sound. Just curious if you were using Mk1s?
I can see this discussion raising the value of the Mk1 and turning them into 'collectors' items
regards
peter
Hi,
I was not suggesting that the measurement was related to the sound. I merely pointed out what was achieved by going bifilar. I hope you can understand that a manufacturer of products that may be measured will be interrested in such an exemplary behaviour.
I did not recommend 50 Ohm, i merely pointed out how the 300KHz flat response was measured. So that no-one can come and say "I measured the transformer with 50KOhm source impedance and I did not giet 300KHz flat response - you are lying".
The Primary of the TX-102 has a total of 400H Primary inductance. This translates into 50KOhm @ 20Hz, so rating the transformer as "10k" is reasonable and correct. As will all transformers however, increasing source impedance will reduce bandwidth and increase distortion.
The TX-102 was designed to be a compatible, improved replacement for a 10k Passive Control. So think of it as a 10k "Pot" in terms of source compatibility.
Well, I used a bifilar TX-102 with my phonostage (E810F Triode wired as output) with no ill effect aparent. So you can use a tube output stage, but an ECC83 or WE 102 may be not very suitable...
Think 6S45-PE, 6N30-PE, 5687/7119/E182CC and such.
Yes, my own units are MKI's. However, I will likely soon be listening to silver MKII's in this kind of unit...
MF Audio Passive Magnetic Volume Attenuator
Sayonara
I was not suggesting that the measurement was related to the sound. I merely pointed out what was achieved by going bifilar. I hope you can understand that a manufacturer of products that may be measured will be interrested in such an exemplary behaviour.
I did not recommend 50 Ohm, i merely pointed out how the 300KHz flat response was measured. So that no-one can come and say "I measured the transformer with 50KOhm source impedance and I did not giet 300KHz flat response - you are lying".
The Primary of the TX-102 has a total of 400H Primary inductance. This translates into 50KOhm @ 20Hz, so rating the transformer as "10k" is reasonable and correct. As will all transformers however, increasing source impedance will reduce bandwidth and increase distortion.
The TX-102 was designed to be a compatible, improved replacement for a 10k Passive Control. So think of it as a 10k "Pot" in terms of source compatibility.
Well, I used a bifilar TX-102 with my phonostage (E810F Triode wired as output) with no ill effect aparent. So you can use a tube output stage, but an ECC83 or WE 102 may be not very suitable...
Think 6S45-PE, 6N30-PE, 5687/7119/E182CC and such.
Yes, my own units are MKI's. However, I will likely soon be listening to silver MKII's in this kind of unit...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
MF Audio Passive Magnetic Volume Attenuator
Sayonara
Silver vs copper
Hi Peter,
I listen to the silver daily and have no particular problem with it. It is brighter. Disregarding cost, the copper would be the one I kept. But I will be changing it to the current Django case and wiring to make a fairer comparison. One thing that wasn't covered in the TVC report is that the silver was wired +6db so impedance may be an issue with its sound.
I like the Jupiter cap too. Waiting on some 22uf coming to try in PS and as WE-UP cap.
Just something to pass along. All of the TVC sales resonses so far have followed the same pattern: initially, mixed enthusiasm even a little disappointment, followed by a period of muted praise, followed by enthusiasm over this major upgrade.
I have no doubt this component takes longer than others to settle into a system, be optimally configured and reveal it strengths.
Keep in touch!
Brian
Hi Peter,
I listen to the silver daily and have no particular problem with it. It is brighter. Disregarding cost, the copper would be the one I kept. But I will be changing it to the current Django case and wiring to make a fairer comparison. One thing that wasn't covered in the TVC report is that the silver was wired +6db so impedance may be an issue with its sound.
I like the Jupiter cap too. Waiting on some 22uf coming to try in PS and as WE-UP cap.
Just something to pass along. All of the TVC sales resonses so far have followed the same pattern: initially, mixed enthusiasm even a little disappointment, followed by a period of muted praise, followed by enthusiasm over this major upgrade.
I have no doubt this component takes longer than others to settle into a system, be optimally configured and reveal it strengths.
Keep in touch!
Brian
Re: Silver vs copper
Hi,
It is certainly true that transformers show substantial and distinct "burn in" behaviour, measurably so. The assembly causes mechanical stresses in the core laminations and there is a LOT of wire in a transformer, equally stressed during the winding.
I normally recommend around 100 Hours of high level pink noise before attempting to make "serious" comparisons. This BTW goes for ALL transformers, including MC stepups.
Whereas one MIGHT debate "burn in" in resistors and capacitors, with transformers it is a fact.
Sayonara
Hi,
It is certainly true that transformers show substantial and distinct "burn in" behaviour, measurably so. The assembly causes mechanical stresses in the core laminations and there is a LOT of wire in a transformer, equally stressed during the winding.
I normally recommend around 100 Hours of high level pink noise before attempting to make "serious" comparisons. This BTW goes for ALL transformers, including MC stepups.
Whereas one MIGHT debate "burn in" in resistors and capacitors, with transformers it is a fact.
Sayonara
KYW
I've always wondered about burn-in: does it only take voltage or is current also essential? Can you 'over-burn' by excessive current? If actual power transfer is essential for burn-in, some situations can be really unfortunate - per example tone arm wires feeding 47kohm input. In the case of a TVC would it be beneficial to burn-in using a lowish load on the secondary (10kohm?) It just occured to me that this proces may take forever with my 470kohm load.
regards
peter
I've always wondered about burn-in: does it only take voltage or is current also essential? Can you 'over-burn' by excessive current? If actual power transfer is essential for burn-in, some situations can be really unfortunate - per example tone arm wires feeding 47kohm input. In the case of a TVC would it be beneficial to burn-in using a lowish load on the secondary (10kohm?) It just occured to me that this proces may take forever with my 470kohm load.
regards
peter
Hi,
For transformers I recommend a Voltage at the design limit into the nominal load. So for the TX-102 this is +20dbu/dbm on the full (series0 primary with a 10k load, volume setting full up.
I recommend pink noise as this contains "all" frequency in an equal mix. I recommend against sine waves or squarewaves. If you cannot burn yourself a pink noise CDR with "0dbf" peaks use a "loud" music CD.
If the level is lower than the design limit it may be usefull to reduce the load below the nominal 10k. With normal Music CD's you may wish to try a 510 Ohm load to get the power in the core up.
Sayonara
analog_sa said:
For transformers I recommend a Voltage at the design limit into the nominal load. So for the TX-102 this is +20dbu/dbm on the full (series0 primary with a 10k load, volume setting full up.
I recommend pink noise as this contains "all" frequency in an equal mix. I recommend against sine waves or squarewaves. If you cannot burn yourself a pink noise CDR with "0dbf" peaks use a "loud" music CD.
If the level is lower than the design limit it may be usefull to reduce the load below the nominal 10k. With normal Music CD's you may wish to try a 510 Ohm load to get the power in the core up.
Sayonara
KYW, Brian Cherry, anyone else interested
I finally wired the TVC for +6db using only the lower part of the primary (between - and --) - an unexpected and very significant improvement in the context of my system. Unfortunately i am not very successful wiring the two primaries in parallel, either way i get a complete cancellation, am i doing something wrong?
cheers
peter
I finally wired the TVC for +6db using only the lower part of the primary (between - and --) - an unexpected and very significant improvement in the context of my system. Unfortunately i am not very successful wiring the two primaries in parallel, either way i get a complete cancellation, am i doing something wrong?
cheers
peter
Hi Brian
Many thanks for your reply. I figured it out as soon as i posted yesterday - i had done some wrong relabelling
It does sound different with only half the primary, some amusing additional reverb, likely resonances...
The good part is that the +6db brings a very large improvement in detail and perceived high frequency extension in my system. And i really don't understand why. Switched back to 0db to make sure - it was almost unlistenable, very vague and uninvolved. At the +6db i can see what all the fuss about TVCs is about. Plus i may end up getting additional gain, although i've only listened at levels of negative gain so far.
I am really curious if there is a sensible explanation for the improvement, can too much inductance be bad in some systems?
regards
peter
Many thanks for your reply. I figured it out as soon as i posted yesterday - i had done some wrong relabelling
It does sound different with only half the primary, some amusing additional reverb, likely resonances...
The good part is that the +6db brings a very large improvement in detail and perceived high frequency extension in my system. And i really don't understand why. Switched back to 0db to make sure - it was almost unlistenable, very vague and uninvolved. At the +6db i can see what all the fuss about TVCs is about. Plus i may end up getting additional gain, although i've only listened at levels of negative gain so far.
I am really curious if there is a sensible explanation for the improvement, can too much inductance be bad in some systems?
regards
peter
Koinichiwa,
I suspect that you had/have the two sections wired up in the wrong sequence. On the older MKI with the symmetrical primary this made very little or no difference, on the Bifilar MKII it makes a large one.
Please check the recently updated App. notes on the S&B Website for more details.
Sayonara
analog_sa said:
I suspect that you had/have the two sections wired up in the wrong sequence. On the older MKI with the symmetrical primary this made very little or no difference, on the Bifilar MKII it makes a large one.
Please check the recently updated App. notes on the S&B Website for more details.
Sayonara
Single primary: interwinding capacitance is halved, leakage inductance may be lower, inductance is halved. This could certainly translate into better highs, and the lower inductance may not be noticable/as noticable given the setup.
I've measured significantly less distortion on other transformers by using only a single primary.
I've measured significantly less distortion on other transformers by using only a single primary.
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